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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 11, 2007 13:08:35 GMT -5
The term does let us does not demonstrate a pluarilty of Gods. If so then once again you are saying there are three seperate Gods that work together under the same essence. And that when God said he created the heavens and earth alone then they speak as a borg. If the Jews say that is was God counsil with the angels. or if it is Gods own counsel within himself, It is also a propehtic utternence to the birth of Jesus through mary. Seeing how Jesus was in the image of a human being, (flesh and blood) and the image of God (sinless) U speak of people using carnal terms to describe God that they are limiting him. Yet you go back to water. then u spit if i tell of earthly thing blah blah blah. One talks about the moat in someone elses eye but you have yet to see the beam in your own eye.
I ask you the same thing then I Jesus the Father.
how you answser will determine if you beleive God is One
Praise Him.
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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 11, 2007 13:26:45 GMT -5
prohpet
it is not a debate it is an observation I have made reading many trinitarian posts. All have said the same thing that Jesus is besides the father, indicating that they beleive that they have seperate bodies. But yet maintain that God is one. Either The Lord Jesus Christ is both the Everlasting Father and the HolyGhost or he is the Second person next to and besides the Father and the Holyghost. Yes it it sematics Oneness beleive the former trinitarians the latter. It is an argument that has been going on ever since the doctorine of the trinity surfaced, which was at what time.
Praise Him
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 11, 2007 22:06:25 GMT -5
I used to BE trinitarian.The churches I came out of say that GOD is 3 persons under the control or sharing the same "essence".No one can explain how an "essence" can manifest itself as 3 persons.It takes mind and thought to do that which go beyond "essence".Which makes no sense seeing we are created in HIS image not "their images" and everyone ever born should be triplets with equal abilities, born at the same time, same thoughts etc.
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 12, 2007 19:44:31 GMT -5
Seriphrim7;
It is not just an observation... Scripture clearly states that Jesus Christ is at the right hand of God in heaven. "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God who also maketh intercession for us.", Romans 8:34. And in Psalms 110:1," the Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Two scriptural references that indicate there are at least two in the Godhead... One can not sit at His own right hand... nor does one make intercession with themselves.
Clearly, the Word declares that Jesus is at the right hand of God... being the Son of God; these scriptures refers to God the Father who is His Lord. The Trinity explains this aboration... how can Jesus who is God sit at the right hand of another... or who is Jesus Christs Lord unless it be God the Father.
Again, the analogy that most closely explains this is that of water... Water can be Ice, Steam or Liquid; each has its own body/form and characteristics/personality... Yet, they are always one... Water H20... the same in essence. This is how one can be three and still have the same essence... Spirit, underlying identity as One God.
The written Doctrine of the Trinity has been in existence since the 325 AD... It had been debated as early as the second century AD... with those who preached Modalism or Oneness...
The First Council of Nicaea occurred in 325AD. Resulting in the Doctrine of the Trinity... It is one of the oldest written doctrines of the Church. It was overwhelmingly approved by the Bishops of the day, with only two votes against it. Modalism or Oneness was the opposing doctrine in debate...
I don't see any significant difference between the two... Only a debate surrounded by semantics. However, some will disagree and argue that the difference in semantics is crucial to salvation. Although, the Word of God doesn't require that the believer sware or have faith in anything other than Jesus Christ, a God; in His birth, death for our sin, burial and resurrection. Jesus Christ being the cornerstone of our salvation.
Prophet.
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Post by soterking on Aug 13, 2007 6:56:25 GMT -5
Joseph,
There was no such thing as the RCC at the council of Nicea, just a collection of bishops meeting, by order of the emperor, to settle the Arian controversy. That's why they called it a 'council'. There was no papal authority evident nor was there in pope speaking ex cathedra...because if there was there would have been no need for the debate at Nicea...the pope could have settle it speaking 'from the chair'.
Read your history bro.
more later, soter king
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Post by phillip on Aug 13, 2007 10:24:03 GMT -5
How do you explain the Trinity? Ie; One God in three Persons;
It is a False Doctrine;unexplainable;
2JN 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2JN 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2JN 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Jesus Saves Acts 2;38
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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 13, 2007 11:24:47 GMT -5
As I said you either believe that Jesus is both the everlasting Father and the HolyGhost or he is not, but the second person in the Godhead. Indicating you are tritheistic(sp). Which would mean you beleive in three Gods roaming in heaven.
As before I can observe that you believe in three Gods. When you use the "Jesus on the right hand of God" You see it as a litteral Jesus standing Next too the father. When Scripture say that NO man hath SEEN the Father. That also Jesus is the VISIBLE image of the INVISIBLE God. Jesus on the right hand is a postiton of authority. Not a littereral u see The Father and Jesus side by side. As Jesus himself testified If you see him you see the Father also. He has always maintain there is one in charge and only one. Jesus was exalted to Lord and Christ, The Father went inside the emtpy body, that was void of any human nature. (Deut 7:11 "the Life of the flesh is in the blood.") and rose it up with ALL power in heaven and earth. Chirst Does not share power with anyone!
As you stateted during the council of Nicea the Roman church decided to make the trinity Doctorine official. It was a formulay that derived from plato. (a philosipher (sp) which we are told to avoid.) It was a man made doctorine because they did not understand John 1:1-14. It was approved by Bishops you say, Bishop who supported Rome above all else, why because trinity has it origins in Rome. It did not oringinate from Jesus, Peter, Paul, none of the apostles. Neither did the Prophets teach that God was Triune. Jesus said that Greatest commandment is that "here o' Isreal the Lord our God is ONE Lord...." God is One and there is only One God.
God is not triune, Jesus on the right hand is a postion of Authority not location when standing in heaven. God is SPIRIT he has no hands no feet no eyes, the only ones he does have is through the person of Jesus.
As I stated before there can only be ONE alpha and ONE omega, you can not have multiple people that are first and last. Only one everlasting and Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would be Called EVERLASTING FATHER.
To soterking there are no POPES in the bible, I hear many say that Peter was the first Pope. Um no he was a Bishop, and popes are associated with Rome. Rome persecuted the man, he had no reason to Go back. But as I have said time and time again, as many has stated as Prophet and soter both have attested too. The Roman catholic church incorperated the doctorine of the trinity. Long has the topic of One and three Gods been going on, Those that were of oneness were first then as time went on the Might of Rome began to kill off those of Oneness. The doctorine of the trinity was maintained through fear and tyranny. They often labeled those that were oneness that understood the scripture as heretics, and slandered there names.
even at the time of the Nicean council Oneness was the dominate belief(sp) which leads me to believe it was the only faith concerning Jesus that was taught by the aposltes, even those of asia minor where oneness and we all know that Paul taught them. by Pauls own words "Is Christ divided?....where u baptized in the name of paul?"
If Jesus told the gentiles that they knew not what they worshipped for salvation is of the Jews. And if the greatest commandment is "Here o Isreal the Lord our God is ONE Lord" that if the Devils believe there is ONE God and tremeble. Then surely those the preach three are not of the truth? Then I would have to conclude that yes it does matter who and what you warship, If Jesus himself say that not everyone that says unto me Lord shall enter in...If at the Last days there will be MANY that will say Lord have we not done so much In your name...and he will say I never knew you ye that work iniquity. Then Yes it does matter who and what and how many u worship.
Prophet you cant maintain there is no difference as I have stated before there is a clear cut differnce in doctorine. Oneness believe that The LORD JESUS CHRIST is both the FATHER and the HOLYGHOST. that there is no distiction of persons, that Jeus is all and all. That he alone is the ruler of heaven. that He has ALL and i say this again ALL POWER in HEAVEN and EARTH. that the right hand of GOd mean AUTHORITY not POSITION. You have clearly stated you do not believe this so when i say it is sematics as you say. Yes we believe in One God the Father who is ABOVE ALL THROUGH ALL and IN YOU ALL. and that ONE God is THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. Trinitarians Believe there are THREE CO-EQUAL CO-ETERNAL beings that Share ONE essesnce that is GOD That they are all unique and distinct from the other. That colletctivly they act and think as one (like the borg who speak as one though they are many.)
Scripture does not support Trinity too many accounts where God DECLARES himself as ONE and ALONE. That he would not GIVE his GLORY to another. Jews maintain a strict montheistic veiw of God, the dont even interpret the "let us make man" as being a plurality of Gods. but God counciling with himself or his angels...I say that because God chose them to reveal himself too. All of him not part of himself but ALL of who he is. And so there will be no question that He alone is the savior of the world and no one else.
No one is the bible taught that God was triune, the Apostle taught from the old testement to attest to who Jesus was and who he had become. The New testement was written By Jew who believe God to be One not triune in nature, Those that had their understanding open. If you can date back to where the trinity surfaced then it has it's origion in man and not God. becasue it did not start on the day of pentecost and it didnt show up until about 100 years after the death of Christ.
Praise Him
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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 13, 2007 11:46:45 GMT -5
u use water but you use it wrong, because by you analogy(sp) water can not do what Ice can do nor can steam do what water can do. It would indicate that the Father can not do what the Son can and the Son cant do what the Holyghost can and so forth. hence the all share the underlyning characteristic of the same essecne but can not do what the other can. then the would not be co-equal seeing how water, ice, and steam are not co-equal why beacuse water is a luqid, ice is a solid, and steam is a gas. Oneness would view it differently using the same theory.
the molecuse H2O would be the core one power, (i.e. Jesus Christ.) as the molecule H2O he can become both a Solid, Liquid, and Gas. So then water, Ice, and steam are only names or titles given to the same molecule. the molecule itself is not diveded because hydrogen by itself can not become water neither can the 2 Oxygens but All is H2O and H20 is all. So by that same Logic you can not divide The Lord Jesus Christ into three persons sharing the same essence it is more like the same essence operating under differnt names.
Makes sense to me
Praise Him
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 13, 2007 14:03:22 GMT -5
Seriphim7:
You said, "And that when God said he created the heavens and earth alone then they speak as a borg"... How do you explain Genesis 1:26,"And God said, (LET US) make man in (our) image, after (our) likeness:.." Here we find a scriptural reference to the plurality of God... Let US make man in OUR image.
Next, please explain, John 1:1-2," In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." Again here we find the scriptures support that the Word and God... two, existed in the beginning. Or John 1:14, " And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." The Word became flesh... as the only begotten of the Father. Did the Father begett Himself... was the Word made flesh to become, the Father in the Flesh or was the Word made flesh as the Son of God?
John 17:21 declares that we... believers and God would be one. How then are we in separate bodies with our own will if we are One as Jesus prayed that we be One even as He and His Father are one? Did God... who is Jesus refute His own prayer... request? Hardly. Then what is the answer? Plainly the answer lies in the fact that in this world our current state of being God has manifested Himself as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit... Just as we are separate beings yet we reside in Christ who is God; while, it doesn't yet appear in this present realm that we are all one... we are!
Prophet.
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Post by soterking on Aug 13, 2007 14:06:42 GMT -5
His prophet,
The First Council of Nicaea occurred in 325AD. Resulting in the Doctrine of the Trinity... It is one of the oldest written doctrines of the Church. It was overwhelmingly approved by the Bishops of the day, with only two votes against it. Modalism or Oneness was the opposing doctrine in debate...
Couple of things, 1. the doctrine of the trinity existed before the council of Nicea 2. the council of Nicea was concerned with Arianism and not modalism or sabellianism.
In order for Sabellian and/or Arius to be grievants there had to be something already in existence to be aggrieved about, notably the trinity.
They were the reactionaries, which presupposes the existence of an already accepted argument to the contrary of their opinions. They argued against the trinity...not the other way around. The doctrine of the trinity, although not codefied until the heretics made a clarification necessary, was the norm...not the other way around.
more later, soter king
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 13, 2007 14:13:26 GMT -5
Soterking:
Precisely... I noted that the debate went back much further... but was codified, with the Nicean Councel in 325AD. As for Arius... again we agree... where there may be some disagreement is that modalism and Arianism as it was known then are basically the same... oneness.
Your post again being a clear example of semantics at work... both of us saying the same thing with different language.
Prophet.
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 13, 2007 17:52:00 GMT -5
The council of nicea is where the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH was birthed. Also, it was during this time that the trinity doctrine was incorporated into Christianity.If you ever get a chance to visit instanbul get the guide to tell you what happened in that city when the new roman catholic priest came to it with their "universal doctrine" from the council of Nicea.Because the people would NOT adopt it, the blood ran ankle deep in the streets. Tertullian was the one who started the trinity doctrine in 2nd century A.D. and look at how he ended up.Even the church who adopted his trinity doctrine rejected his other heresies and ran him out of the country. You can find MANY "trinities" is all heathen religion, yet Judaism is MONOTHEISTIC.GOD did not deceive the Jews into thinking HE was ONE for 1000's of yrs. Just to confuse them with "AHA!I AM a trinity of persons just like the heathens worship!"GOD is NOT the author of confusion.HE is not the author of the trinity doctrine either.It was Constantine(the sun god worshipper) and his band of co horts who formed the RCC at the council of Nicea.All you have to do is find out WHEN he appointed the first pope(his successor) to know when the RCC took power.
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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 13, 2007 19:04:11 GMT -5
Forgive me but it is somewhat irritating to have to keep restated the same thing. As I said and many other in regards to John 1:1-2 It is not some other God but the same God, if the father was the the one robed in flesh then it is safe to assume that he was the word that become flesh. Is that two hard to understand.
Jesus was already slain before the foundation of the earth, that is the power of God if it is thought up it is already done, all he has to do is speak the word only.
First the "let us make man" As I stated above any Jewish person looked at that as either God in counsil with his own will or he is talking to the angels. Seeing that Man was made in the image of God and angel, (which is pure and Holy, perfect in everyway.) then the latter would hold true as well as the former. Since man was made in the image of God and his angels. i.e. being without sin. Second it is also a prophetic utterance to the birth of Jesus. Gods word transends time and space. Jesus came both in the image of a fleshly man under the law and or a perfect being having no sin in him. So it would be safe to say that the let us was a reference to Him and Mary creating the Human known as Jesus. As prophet stated himself he already existed in the mind of God before the foundation of the earth. Like wise Mary had already given birth the angel had already visted. God only declared what he would do with Mary in the very beginning of the bible.
Like I said No Jew taught or even thought of God as triune, it was not a question in their mind in regards to it. To consider God triune would be idolotry. But to further my point Later in the verse It said"So God created man in HIS OWN image..." His own would indicate a singularness not a triune of Gods operating together. So even though us would constitute the holy nature of God and his angels ultamatley they angels themselves are made in the image of God. Thus it is HIS OWN image. Thus in everthing I have just written does hold true in reference to scripture. God himself created man and in HIS OWN image did he make them.
Malachi 2:10 "Have we not all one father? hath not ONE God created us?..."
Zacharaiah 14:9 "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be ONE Lord and his name ONE."
Isaih 42:8 "I am the Lord: that is my NAME; and my glory will I NOT give to another..."
It is a name that Jesus now carries. Acts 2:36 "Therfore let all the house of isreal know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus whome you have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Also if Christ mean anointing and the HolyGhost is the anointing of God then if Chist now holds the title of anointing then would he not be the HolyGhost.
Isaiah 54:5 "For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy REDEEMER the HOLY ONE of Isreal; The God of the WHOLE earth shall he be Called." (so you know the; the should be read as thee...he is thee only God."
John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God..." correct me if I am wrong but it does not state that the word was a god serperate from God but that the very same word was that very same God it was with. As many and I mean many have said it is no different then then My word being with me, that my word represents me and who I am. It is not seperate nor does it act on it's own. Then by your own logic of this scripture u allude that Jeus is the visible manifiestation of himself and not the Father. For is scripture say that the Father is the only God then the word being that God would mean that the word is the father. Another thing the word of God is also the power of God, his wisdom etc. etc. God's word is wisdom and Power. Gen 1:3 "And God said let there be light: and there was light." That is Gods word at work, he spoke it and it came to pass. It is not the father giving orders to his own word then his word acting it out. They are the same inseperable.
As I said before You claim to be montheistic(sp) but every scripture you bring forth is a way of showing that The Lord Jesus Christ is not the father but a seperate, distinct being next too and between two other Gods.
As a believer prohpet you have not your own will for you will would be the fathers will. You would seek to pleas him and do what he wants. The church is one not many there is only one chruch there is only one body. Christ was refering to the church not the indivdual members. (and not the building either) there is only ONE church not many the one Church operates How God would want it to operate. So yes Jesus prayed that we be one not many. Why would that be could it be because God is not many but One also likewise the church is to be the same?
As I have said and as I will continue to say it is amazing how trinitarians spend there time trying to prove the existance of three Gods yet maintain that God is one.
More to come Praise him
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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 13, 2007 19:50:44 GMT -5
To also add on to joseph and it is getting redundant(sp) now. I have said before the the council of Nicea made the trinity doctoine Law. Yes I know the concept had been going around way before the council it is nothing new. No soter it is not the other way around Oneness was the beginning doctorine, it was not the later. Seeing how Jews are monotheistic, and NO one in the bible (I dont know how many times I have to state this!!!) taught that God was triune. Justin matyre may have been the first noted to talk of a triune God and even then he used no verses to support his theory nor did he even mention the Logos or use John 1:1-14 to support his theory. that is more then a centrury after the death of Chirst. No one before him alluded to the Logos theory nor a triune God. ( and I mean aposltic fathers) And he got most of his theory from greek Philosopers.
The whole Logos theology didnt begin until late into the second century. So if it didnt begin until Late then it is safe to say that the majority was ONENESS not trinitarian.
"In order for Sabellian and/or Arius to be grievants there had to be something already in existence to be aggrieved about, notably the trinity." this is what you beleive soter?
Um no Just because they were mad does not mean that it came before. If someone told a lie on you u defended the Lie. They were only trying to stop them from being in error and pervertin the word. It had nothing to do with trinity was already established.
Why do I say that? because when the Logos theory began to surface those that are of oneness stood up against it for what it was. A false doctorine not rooted in the truth of God's word. Those that were against it were called "ALOGI" and they were sometimes classed with Monarchians!
Jewish christians did not beleive Christ to be seperate from God. But since rome is known for is pagan practices, and since gentile christians were most likely educated in rome they held to the greek philospies of the Logos being another God. Hence Zeus, Posieden, and Hades the three brother why not have the three Gods but give them new name God the Father God the Son and God the Holyghost. (I am not saying zeus and all were replaced. but it is mighty funny when i think about it and strangley coincendital.)
Also that over a period of 600 years the translation of john 1:3-4 was tranlasted for It ot him. One version refered to the word as It while another Him. Would your word be a it or a him?
Isaiah 55:11 "So shall MY WORD be that goeth forth out of My mouth: IT shall not return unto Me void, but IT shall accomplish that which I please, and IT shall prosper in the things whereto I sent It."
There the word of God is translated as it, or was he refering to the second person in the godhead?
So yes oneness was taught in the bible by Christ the apostle and all those of the way. No one taught a triune God. Even if you were to use Matt 28:19 as saying Jesus taught it but Peter Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and not father, son, holyghost. So since Christ opened up their understanding so that they might understand the scriptures, then by the acts of the apostles and their understanding that if you seen Christ you have seen the father. would have taught there is one on the throne in heaven and that one would be The Lord Jesus Christ himself.
Like before and I stand by it Trinity is rooted in a man made theology it is not of Christ nor has it ever been. An historian will tell you that the trinity was not the original doctorine of the chruch in acts but was later adopted and modified by rome to more so fit there beliefes. In an attempt to get away from Jewish traditions and continue on their own. Which would explain whey they incorperated a lot of pagan holidays into there church and make it christionized.
More to come if we continue. Praise Him
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Post by purly on Aug 13, 2007 23:55:27 GMT -5
amen
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 14, 2007 10:09:28 GMT -5
Seriphim:
The following are quotes from your post:
As I said you either believe that Jesus is both the everlasting Father and the Holy Ghost or he is not, but the second person in the Godhead. Indicating you are tritheistic(sp). Which would mean you beleive in three Gods roaming in heaven.
First, believing that God is able to manifest Himself as three persons... the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit doesn't mean they are not ONE... Just as water is able to manifest itself as Ice, Steam and Liquid but remain One, H2O. There is but One God; this we agree on. The dispute then lies in your contention that God is limited in His ability to project Himself when and how He chooses... Don't you find this a little arrogant, limiting God?
Why do the Scriptures speak of a Godhead? If there is but One person, why then the need for a Godhead? Could it be that the Godhead is a term used to speak of the three manifestations of God... As the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Since we know the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ... Then, there is more than one person dwelling in Christ, as the Godhead. In fact, in John 17:21 Jesus prayed, of the Father, that we all be as One... The Believer, Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit; are all One is Christ... the fullness of the Godhead. John 17:21"... that they all may be one in us..." If billions of individual believers can be One in Christ... Even as Christ and the Father are One... Why is it so difficult to believe that three can be One? Please answer this; it is a key element in the concept of the Trinity. One that Oneness beleivers seem to ignore?
As before I can observe that you believe in three Gods. When you use the "Jesus on the right hand of God" You see it as a literal Jesus standing Next too the father. When Scripture say that NO man hath SEEN the Father. That also Jesus is the VISIBLE image of the INVISIBLE God. Jesus on the right hand is a position of authority. Not a literal u see The Father and Jesus side by side. As Jesus himself testified If you see him you see the Father also. He has always maintain there is one in charge and only one. Jesus was exalted to Lord and Christ, The Father went inside the emtpy body, that was void of any human nature. (Deut 7:11 "the Life of the flesh is in the blood.") and rose it up with ALL power in heaven and earth. Chirst Does not share power with anyone!
Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one... It is not by might nor by power but by My Spirit, saith, the Lord. All power is vested in the Godhead and Jesus Christ is the fullness of the Godhead. Therefore, it is the Godhead that dwells in Him that has all power. Why is all power vested in Christ?
Because it is thru Christ that they who are in the world are able to see the power of God manifested in the flesh... Beleivers, in this present day; comprehend the power of God, thru the revelation knowledge of Jesus Christ. Therefore, when the scripture says that all power was given to Christ; it speaks of the power revealed in Christ, by revelation knowledge in the believer... It dosen't limit the power of each member of the Godhead.
Those who fail to acknowledge God... fail too understand the source of all power... They believe in foolishness: false sciences, wives tales and fables as the source of the power displayed in the universe.
Some, neglect Genesis 1:26 Psalm 110:1, in their understanding of God's being... Gen 1:26: God said, "...let (us) make man in (our) image..." and Psalm 110:1, "And the Lord said unto My Lord, sit thou at My right hand..." Each reference, refere to more than one... Yet, many fail to discuss these references in scripture.
Others state that John 1:1-2; are only a figurative representation of God in the beginning. However, these Scriptures clearly portray both the Word of God and God as two, separate beings... Yet being together as one. The scripture, speaks clearly to their being a difference between the Word of God and God. The Greek word translated, Word of God, is a different from the Greek word translated, God... Why two separate Greek words for one person? If this portion of the scripture were meant to represent one person, or to convey the concept of only one... Why not use the same Greek Word... for God?
However, John choose to use Greek words for God that are not the same; conveying the concept of more than one person in the Godhead, from the beginning... The Alpha. John 1:1-2 agrees with Genesis 1:26, when it says "... let us make man in our image, after our likeness." at the beginning of creation.
Again, Ro 8:34, "... It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God who also maketh intercession for us..." If Romans (8:34) speaks in only a figurative sense... How then does Jesus figuratively make intercession with himself? Obviously, He doesn't; the concept of God interceding with himself, conveys the idea, that Jesus Christ would need to pray to Himself... Why would this be necessary?
As you stated during the council of Nicea the Roman church decided to make the trinity Doctrine official. It was a formulay that derived from plato. (a philosipher (sp) which we are told to avoid.) It was a man made doctorine because they did not understand John 1:1-14. It was approved by Bishops you say, Bishop who supported Rome above all else, why because trinity has it origins in Rome. It did not oringinate from Jesus, Peter, Paul, none of the apostles. Neither did the Prophets teach that God was Triune. Jesus said that Greatest commandment is that "here o' Isreal the Lord our God is ONE Lord...." God is One and there is only One God.
God is not triune, Jesus on the right hand is a postion of Authority not location when standing in heaven. God is SPIRIT he has no hands no feet no eyes, the only ones he does have is through the person of Jesus.
As I stated before there can only be ONE alpha and ONE omega, you can not have multiple people that are first and last. Only one everlasting and Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would be Called EVERLASTING FATHER.
First, I never claimed that the RCC even existed at the time of the first council of Nicea... as they did not exist, there was no Pope in attendance... just Bishops at the council.
On what basis do you claim there can not be more than One present in the Alpha... The term Alpha not only represents a person, but a time in space... when everything began. There is nothing that says the Godhead did not exist in the beginning. In fact, scripture says the fullness of the Godhead always existed in Christ... from the Alpha to the Omega... and beyond... into eternity. The basis for the trinity is a triun Godhead... three persons in one.
The trinity claims that three persons exist in the fullness of Christ, as the Godhead (One)... This concept is not contrary to there being only One God. The trinity claims there is only One God. Those who are unable to understand this concept, attack it... Often, presuming to define the doctrine, to fit their own perceptions; even though they admit they don't understand or believe in the doctrine.
This is extraordinarily arogant... Presuming to define another's faith; while demonstrating, no real understanding of that faith. The Trinitarian has more than a reasonable basis in Scripture to proclaim their faith... They also have examples in nature that demonstrate the Godhead as a trinity... water. All heaven and earth bear record of God, so that man is not ignorant of God; man is without excuse.
God said Iam the way the truth and the life... there is no life without God. There is also no life without water... Interesting that God should provide man with an example of His being in the unique molecular structure called water. H20... two parts hydrogen... the power mankind says rules the universe... These represent the Father and the Son... Oxygen, represents the Spirit... the air, the source of lfe... that binds together the Hydrogen the Father and the Son as One in the Godhead... making them One God. Some will not believe even if the dead are raised... some will not believe regardless of the physical and scriptural evidence of the Godhead in Christ.
I love those believers, of the Oneness doctrine... I admire their zeal for God and their holiness... I believe in the doctrine of only One God. I conceptually accept all their faith as true and their doctrine as righteous. I find no reason to proclaim that their doctrine is mutually exclusive of the Trinity... I find that the confusion and arguments between the Trinity and Oneness lie with man and the semantics of his language.
May God richly bless and keep the doctrine of Oneness alive in the heart of the beleiver... that they may receive their inheritance in Christ.... Growing up in every measure to the fullness of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Prophet.
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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 14, 2007 11:09:59 GMT -5
Prophet
first you take my reconstruction of the water analogy you use and try and turn it back to me. The molecules of H20 can become liqiud, solid, and a gas. I never Said that The Lord Jesus Christ can not manifest (make himself known) to the people. If I Maintain the The Lord Jesus Christ is the Father, that He is the HolyGhost, That He is the Son all at the same time where is my arogance.
the Godhead is the Power and characteristics of God, not three persons. I am starting to see why they say the trinity is a self inflicted wound to the church. If all of the Fathers Characteristics and Power rest in the resurected body of Jesus then Jesus is all the God is. If The Lord Jesus Christ is All that God is then he would be the one and Only God. That has an omnipresesnt spirit that is everywhere at all times.
You cleary do not understand scripture, it hurts me to say it becaue I see you too have a zeal for truth you just wont lay down this false doctorine. In regards to romans 8 and Christ praying. THere is a difference between the man and the exalted Jesus. Scripture speaks of the blood sacrifice that makes intercessions for us, the sacrafice of the man. It was that one time act that allowed us to be reconciled to God. The Apostle and writers of the NT new this.
You have to know when they talk about the blood sacrifice or the Man Chirst Jesus and the Exalted one. Chirst on the right had would be the exalted. It is a position of Authority AGAIN it does not my he physically sit's next to the Father for then scripture would inturn be a lie seeing how the FATHER said there in NO GOD besides me NEITHER WILL there be after me. You make scripture a lie by your own terminology. Trinitarians try and fit what they believe in scripture by trying to maintain the believe in ONE God but is evident that you do not.
You said "Some, neglect in their argument Genesis 1:26..."let us make man in our image" and Psalm 110:1, "And the Lord said unto My Lord, sit thou at My right hand" Both make reference to more than one... Yet, you fail to discuss these references in scripture."
It pains me that you did not read my post for I have said and explaint the "let us make man." it is obvious by what I sais you can't disagree with it for you avoid the very fact that I have explained it. And I will not eiter read the post or stop talking about it. The pophetic utternce of david was talking about the exaltation of the Man Christ Jesus. If David, Moses, the prohets all died waiting on the promise of the messiah, then he was considered there Lord. Once again YOU limit God not I, by contending he cant utter a prophecy in regards to Christ His birth and exaltation at any time in the bible. It was a prophetic utterence that Chirst would be Exalted with ALL POWER. It does not mean the Jesus was pre-existing or that there are two gods in heaven.
the Rcc was not to you it was to soter and his comment, if I did not make that clear then forgive me.
You really kill everthing with you H20 there are 2 oxygen molecule if the father and Jesus represnt the Hydrogen the Holyghost is on oxygen then who is the other. second all you are saying is that neither can be God without the other, that they father can not do what the son can the son cant do what the holyghost can and the holyghost cant do what the father can. seeing how hydogen can not be liquid by itself, since hydrogen and oxygen are both air molecules (gassess(sp))
please re-read my posts seeing how I have explained the way the H20 anology should be used and explained various other things. Becaue you dance around everthing I have said. And even in your last post you quote what I said but never deal with it. you mostly rant as to then explain this, was Christ paying to himself then stuff. there was much more to what I said and by far none of it can be considered false when viewed with scripture and the power of God.
Last I am not trying to define your faith, it is your doctorine. your teachings that I am attacking. you man have all the faith in the world but remember faith without works is dead, and faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God. You must have faith in the scriptures not a man made theology concerning the trinity that is derived from mis-interpretatin and not understanding scripture. When they stepped out of the word and started using NON-BIBLICAL terms to describe God, such as triune, essence, substance they stepped of the path of truth and onto the wide road full of the many that think they are following God.
Read all of my post, heck re-read the whole thread it would save you the trouble of asking a question that was already thorouly explained by my self and many others. Remember this is a ONENESS board I am sure it has been explained in detail many times over.
huh if we must continue we must. Though every thing one reads here will be a witness against them if they not conform to the truth.
Praise Him
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 14, 2007 16:37:48 GMT -5
Constantine was at the council of nicea and he was their pope.He later appointed someone afterwards to succeed him. As far as water, hydrogen and oxygen you only have 2 parts.They are not "co-equal" water can do things air cannot,oxygen can do things hydrogen cannot. Ok you have water steam and ice.Thats also like ONE person playing 3 different roles in the movies.Yet you have the ACTOR who is a 4th in real life. Yet ONE person can be father, son,uncle, brother, nephew and still be one person just as GOD is FATHER,SON HOLY GHOST.
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 14, 2007 20:26:31 GMT -5
Joseph7:
As far as I know the Emporer Constantine was not a Pope at the conviening of the Nicean Counsel... He was the empore of the Eastern Roman Empire with its headquarters in Nova Rome/in Bizantium not Rome...
The following is an exert from wickpedia concerning His role as emporer... he never claimed to be Pope: "For Constantine, the emperor did not decide doctrine - that was the responsibility of the bishops - rather his role was to enforce doctrine, root out heresy, and uphold ecclesiastical unity.[26] The emperor ensured that God was properly worshipped in his empire; what proper worship consisted of was for the Church to determine.[27]
Again,"The Council of Nicaea was historically significant because it was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.[2] "It was the first occasion for the development of technical Christology."[2] Further, "Constantine in convoking and presiding over the council signaled a measure of imperial control over the church."[2] With the creation of the Nicene Creed, a precedent was established for subsequent general councils to create a statement of belief and canons which were intended to become guidelines for doctrinal orthodoxy and a source of unity for the whole of Christendom —
In 316, Constantine acted as a judge in a North African dispute and condemned the heresy of Donatism.[2] More significantly, in 325 he summoned the First Council of Nicaea, effectively the first Ecumenical Council (unless the Council of Jerusalem is so classified), which condemned Arianism and formulated the Trinity as it is known today. It also resulted in the formulation of the common Bible of Today. The Council of Nicea traditionally marks the end of the early Christian era.[citation needed]
Excuse me... Water is made up of two adams of hydrogen and one adam of oxygen... The hydrogen adams can represent the Father and the Son, as they are both identical and they hold the power of the universe within their atomic structure. Oxygen is the element that binds the two hydrogen adams to gether as one. Oxygen gives the resulting water molecule (Godhead if you will) it's unique abilites to take on three forms... without changing it's primary chemical make up. It helps if you understand Chemistry.
The primary point is that there are three separate adams... that make up water. Two are identical and contain the power of the universe. The third element (oxygen/Holy Spirit) binds the two hydrogen (Father and Son)together as one. The three together form water the single most important element in the universe... required for any life to exist. Water also comes in three separate forms; Ice, Steam, and Liquid each with their own bodies and personalities/characteristics.
There is no need for a 4th actor... or uncles, nephews etc.; as all three are one and each is part of the Godhead. If you have seen the Father you have also seen the Son... Hydrogen is identical and there are two adams of Hydrogen in water. This analogy is immutable... it testifies in the natural of that which is spiritual for every man to see and be without excuse.
Yes... one person can be Father, Son and Holy Spirit... just as one God is in Billions of Christians.
Final question: Would you use reference matriel claiming to be the Word of God transcribed and interpreted by those who were Trinitarian's? If not then stop using the King James Bible as it is the work of espoused... trinitarians. The trinitarian can translate the Word of God into the King James Bible; but he is not of God? Excuse me.
Prophet.
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 14, 2007 20:29:31 GMT -5
Would any of you use materiel produced by Trinitarians for doctrine? Be careful how you answer as the King James version of the Holy Bible was translated and transcribed by Trinitarians.
How is it that Trinitarians can produce th King James Bible... but don't have the Truth... are not of God? Please respond to this crucial point... will you all stop using the KJV now that you realize it is the product of Trinitarians?
Prophet
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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 14, 2007 23:28:16 GMT -5
Trinitarinas did not produce the King james bible they copied it. The bible was already produced and their were several version of the bible way before the King James versons. Some didn't even have the Matt 28:19 verse in them. I know this because I have a Hebrew text that is dated back to the 14th centrury I believe.
Then why would we not Use the King James version, even with it's trinitarian slants Gods word is still a sealed book. What I am trying to say is I look to God to open up my understanding thorugh the vessal he has chosen to be my Pastor. then I further study to make sure the word is in my heart.
The translaters did what they had to do, though they added in alot of slants and then blantelntly added verses. But like i said I look to God for understanding.
In other words God moved on the 40 men who wrote the original manuscripts of the bible i.e. Moses etc...he did not inspire the translators they only copied and some of them added and some tranlated to fit more of what they felt was right. Remeber the example I gave about john 1:1-14 where in one version it is translated as IT and in another it is HIM.
God can use anyone to do his will and that person still not have truth, Judas, Balaam, Saul those trinitarians that translated the bible.
And if you dont believe me about that added on verses 1john 5:7-8 is a known added verse it is not any any oringnal manuscripts before the 17th century but trinitarians will use the verse to boost their claims of the trinity. But the original writer did not write it, but even in that it still reveals the truth of Gods word. That The Lord Jesus Chirst is all.
Last how is it u can demand that we answer your foolish question, cause that is all it is a foolish question meant to trip someone up. but yet you can not answer our own question.
mainly is Jesus the Father and the Holyghost or not?
now you be careful on how you answer it because then it will determine if oneness and trinity are the same or not.
much more to come if we continue this endless discsussion. Praise HIm
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Post by soterking on Aug 15, 2007 6:55:37 GMT -5
His prophet, Ok to save us from "semantics" let me just say.... Arianism and Modalism are not the same thing. It's the difference between homoiousios and heteroousios.The difference between "of like substance" and "of a different substance". That's a little more than just a "semantical" difficulty... and JOSEPH, I find it amusing your little bait and switch... which is it? ? The council of nicea is where the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH was birthed.or, The trinity doctrine first started in the 2nd centurty by tertullian and was accepted by the RCC at the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and the form we have it in now was accepted and taught by Rome in 425 A.D. Was the birthing of the RCC accepted at Nicea also? ? You can make any argument die the death of a thousand qualifications. But at least you acknowledge, tacitly, that your orginal statement was incorrect...so thank you for that. more later, soter king
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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 15, 2007 11:00:40 GMT -5
you are correct arianism and modalism are not the same thing, but truly we don't really know the fullness or what Arius taught seening how they made him burn all his writting and anyone caught with his writtings were made to burn them as well. The only thing we know of his teaching is from those who oppose them, but it is safe to say he did not support trinity nor the Logos doctorine. To the extent of the fullness of what He actually beleive we do not know. He Used some of Origens theology to support his efforts and to explain what he was saying but he did not like the Origens was putting it, Which is more of the stance everyone beleived that He stood for, which I believe he did not. I think he was oneness all the way, his accusers may have confused what he was saying. Plus Armionsus(cant remember how to spell his name) Hated arius. Aruis also went to alexander and told him that the doctorine of the Trinity was herectical!!! Yes the majority of those in alexandria where oneness and did not like the idea of the trinity, but what can you do when romans who are in charge beleive they are smatter then the average bear huh. Did you know that arius was the pastor of the first church in alexandria and that that church was started by Mark himself. Yes the writer of the Gosepel. And by those that succeeded him in the line of Bishop it is safe to assume they did not support the trinity until later on. One of the bishop even said that those who are baptized as heritics, (and he was talking about triune baptism) should be rebaptized. This is not joke the trinity was considered herectical. but I have so much more....
To joseph defence I have already stated that the council was where they officially made the trinity doctorine the doctorine of the (chatholic)church. There were still many churches that did not support the doctorine. Hence the ongoing heritics that were pursecuted and killed by the roman catholic church. Rome had the might and the Power, constantine himself was even baptized until he was going to die, and most likely knew nothing of Chirstianity and could probably care less but he was over the council and he delegated what should be what. And who in their right mind at that time would stand against the emperor. But more on that also, this stuff is really good when you research and find alot of things.
I leave with this a excerpt from tertullian concerning Modelisic Monarchians
"the simple indeed (I will not call them unwise and unlearned.) Who ALWAYS constitute the MAJORITY of BELIEVERS, are STARTLED at the DISPENSATION (of THREE IN ONE.) on the grounds that their VERY RULE OF FAITH WITDRAWS THEM FROM THE WORD'S PLURALITY of gods. to the ONE TRUE GOD; not understanding that, although he is the only God, He must yet be believed in with HIS OWN DISPENSATION. The numerical order and distrubution of the TRINITY (first time it was used concerning God) they ASSUME to be a DIVISION of the unity..."
One you can see that oneness was the mojority in the second centrury and it is safe to say that Oneness was the dominante belief in the first and the beginning of the second. He called it a dispensation, though there may be dispensation of Man and there interaction with God, hence the dispensation of grace. God has not dispensation concerning his nature and character. He is the same yeterday today and forever more. He beleived he was getting a new revelation when he was actually looking for a way to get those of rome who where considered more eductated, the upper class of rome, the philosophers of rome, the very elite to understand who Christ was. The best way he could explain it was using the Logos. But those labeled as Modalism feared that he was and those that agreed with him were beginning to pervert the doctorine of Christ. There major concern is that they stick to the complete monotheistic veiw of God. In other words they new where this "new revelation or dispensation was headed too.) Tertullian in much of his writings was more so trying to convince the MOJORITY (those that were oneness) that is new doctorine did not deveate from the monotheistic veiw of God. but his veiw was a success among the romans. And once you get a lil recognition and you already perverted the word of God -a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump---pride comes before a fall- you can't stop. He most likely was given honors among the great when it came to philospy and theology in rome. It was someting that stuck but those of the truth didn't like it and the battle has waged on ever since.
so as we have stated numerous times the trinity derived from Man, anyone can obvioulsy see that Jesus, the Apostles, none of the Judaic Chirstians beleived or taught that God was triune. We are not talking about you read and you see Jesus being baptized, people HEAR (not see) the Voice of God(the father) and the Holyghost decending like a dove(which was a sign that only John can see and it was the only way for him to know Jesus was the Mesiah for God is spirit and invisible if he did not shape himself as a dove John would not have seen it nor Knew that Jesus was the Messiah the chosen one.) Or that Jeus prayed to the father, or that The Apostle interchanged between the redemptive word of the man Jesus and the exalted one (meaning they spoke of the sacrifice, but also of the father within the same sentence.) is not a teaching of the trinity. The trinity is read into it is not taught by anyone of the bible. If no Jew considers God to be triune that should have been the first uh-oh. But what do you say to people who believe they are more educated then the rest.
Much more if we continue again.
Praise Him
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 15, 2007 17:51:01 GMT -5
The RCC doctrine was first formed and THE RCC was BIRTHED at the council of Nicea, like it or not.Constantine was the first pope and appointed a successor to HIS "universal church".The fact they began putting people to death after the council of Nicea for not adhering to the tenets they agreed upon shows what that church truly was.Like I said, do some study on Istanbul.
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 15, 2007 18:21:59 GMT -5
The comments posted in Green were extracted from another website... and show some of the history and doctrinal pillars of the Trinity (monotheism, the diety of Christ, the person of the Holy Spirit... the Godhead etc)
The doctrine of the Trinity requires a balanced view of Scripture. That is, since the doctrine itself is derived from more than one stream of evidence, it requires that all the evidence be weighed and given authority.
If any of the foundational pillars of the doctrine (monotheism, the deity of Christ, the person of the Holy Spirit, etc.) be ignored or even rejected, the resulting doctrinal system will differ markedly from the orthodox position, and will lose its claim to be called "biblical."
For centuries various small groups have rejected the doctrine of the Trinity. In modern times these groups have frequently attracted quite a following; Jehovah's Witnesses as the modern heirs of Arius have over 3 million people actively engaged in their work; the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) are heirs of ancient polytheism and mystery religions, and nearly 10 million adhere to their teachings.
A smaller number of people, however, cling to the third-century position of modalism - the teachings of men such as Sabellius or Praxeas or Noetus. Though fewer in number, it is this position, popularly called the "Oneness" teaching, that prompts this paper's clarification of the Biblical position regarding the doctrine of the Trinity and the Person of Jesus Christ. Oneness writers strongly deny the doctrine of the Trinity.
The issues between Oneness and the Trinity remain... one mainly of semantics.
Next, I don't believe I said Modalism and Arianism were the same... What I did say is that Modalism (oneness) was part of the opposing debate during the Nicean Council and had been an issue in the early Church, since the second century... and that, Arianism was the other opposing doctrine being brought before the council of Nicea.
I did not intend to convey the thought, that Modalism and Arianism were the same. Please re-read my post... you will find I didn't say Modalism was Arianism. Each, opposed the Doctrine of the Trinity.
I have not addressed any semantical issues between Modalism and Arianism. The only semantical issues I have raised are between Trinitarian and Oneness doctrine. It is here that I believe each have used terms, and linguistic constructs, that are nearly identical but convey different meanings... among different people.
The issue reamins... How could the Trinitarian ministry produce such works as the KJV of the Bible... and most of the other Christina Orthodox translations of the Holy Scriptures?
Do we judge too harshly when we label them heretical or unsaved? Could it be that we tend to be overly dogmatic on how God reveals Himself? Is it sufficient for salvation to declare in faith that Jesus Christ is God and to be baptized in His name... as many Trinitarians do?
Is the Trinitarian that believes there is only One God...who has manifested Himself, in the three persons of the Godhead... declares Jesus Christ to be God and is baptized in the name of Jesus... our Brother? If so then we need to treat them with brotherly love... with wisdom and patients that they may grow up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord... into the full measure and stature of Jesus Christ.
Prophet.
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Post by phillip on Aug 15, 2007 19:47:04 GMT -5
Prophet
Trinty is a Faith without substance or evidence;
If there is three persons in the God Head; Two of Them do not have any Power;
Christ has all Power; He is the Substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not Seen;
MT 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
1CO 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1CO 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Jesus Saves Acts 2;38
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 15, 2007 20:00:35 GMT -5
Phillip:
I didn't intend to engage you in further disputation regarding this matter... However, I would like to ask you three simple questions and receive three direct answers...
1) How did men who held adamantly to the doctrine of the Trinity produce the KJV of the Bible... and the majority of all the known translations of the Bible in existance?
2) Can heretics or unbelievers produce Holy works... such as the KJV of the Bible?
3) Is it hypocritical to declare the Trinity Doctrine heretical and use the works of their faith... the KJV of the Bible as proof of their heresy?
Prophet.
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Post by Kentucky Woman on Aug 15, 2007 20:18:58 GMT -5
There is no where in the scriptures that teach 3 Gods or three PERSONS in the Godhead. That is unbiblical and false doctrine. John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
God the Father is the Spirit that came to earth in the form of the Lord Jesus Christ, or the "Son of man".
1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Look at this next verse, note that the Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Christ.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
God the Father is a Spirit (remember John 4:24). God is holy! God is a "Holy Spirit". The Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Christ IS the Holy Spirit.
Luke 9:48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
The Spirit of truth was dwelling WITH them in the flesh body of the Lord Jesus Christ BECAUSE: The Spirit of Truth IS the Spirit of Christ IS the Spirit of God IS the Holy Spirit (AKA the "Holy Ghost"). Yes, ONE God, and ONE ONLY!
John 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jesus said that HE was dwelling with them and that He would be IN THEM.
When a person receives the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, they receive the Spirit of God the Father, which IS the Spirit of Christ. When a person is baptized in Jesus name they "put on Christ", they put on "the Son".
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
II John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
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Post by phillip on Aug 15, 2007 20:49:05 GMT -5
Prophet
You are the one that is makeing statements of belief which is contrary to the Word of God;
Ie ; God in three Persons; ie; Three Images of God,s Person/persons;
If this is what you believe; Which person/One is the The Express Image of God.s Person;
Do not use a glass of water to back up your belief; Use Scripture Only;
Christ the Son; He is the Only Express Image of God.s Person; HEB 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
HEB 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
HEB 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
HEB 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
HEB 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
HEB 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
HEB 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
HEB 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom
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Post by phillip on Aug 16, 2007 2:38:46 GMT -5
Prophet
The Translator/s is not the Author of that which was Translated;
Our Faith is in Christ Jesus; The Author and Finisher of our Faith; ie; the Author of that which was Translated; "Is it hypocritical to declare the Trinity Doctrine heretical and use the works of their faith... the KJV of the Bible as proof of their heresy?"
Prophet
The KJV disproves the Works of their Faith; That which they translated; disproves what they believe; ie; One God in three Persons/Images;
Jesus Saves Acts 2;38
Phillip:
I didn't intend to engage you in further disputation regarding this matter... However, I would like to ask you three simple questions and receive three direct answers...
1) How did men who held adamantly to the doctrine of the Trinity produce the KJV of the Bible... and the majority of all the known translations of the Bible in existance?
2) Can heretics or unbelievers produce Holy works... such as the KJV of the Bible?
3) Is it hypocritical to declare the Trinity Doctrine heretical and use the works of their faith... the KJV of the Bible as proof of their heresy?
Prophet.
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