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Post by soterking on Jul 11, 2007 12:02:00 GMT -5
Seraphim,
Uh no not "seperate" Gods...we don't use the word "seperate". I am a trinitarian not a tri-theist. So instead of arguing against a straw man it would serve you better to make an argument against what the doctrine actually states instead of what you state are it's conclusions.
Let us state our own conclusions and then you make your case based upon that.
One God in Three Persons (whether you like it or not those two premesis are found in the scritpure). 1. One God 2. Three Persons make up this One God
However you explain it the two premesis above are textual facts. No way around it. You cannot say that Jesus is only "acting" like He's talking to another person (the Father) when in actuality it looks as if He's...talking to another person other than Himself.
I mean...Jesus acts like a person. The Father acts like a person who is not Jesus... (it is incontrovertible)
....therefore, it's not a stretch of credulity to say that since Jesus acts like a person...then He is a person...and since the Father acts like a person who is not Jesus...then He is a person...who is not Jesus.
That's whay the text says. No way around it.
Soter King
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 11, 2007 12:19:00 GMT -5
where does it say three make up one godhead. what is three person anyway. God is not a person, no where in scripture will u find God refered to as a person. Once again it always always come pact to three seperate persons. If u say the father acts like a person, and u say Jesus acts like a person. You indicate that God is on one side and Jesus stands beside him. that my friend is seperate. Trinty is not doctornaly sound it never has been. It aways and I mean always promotes three seperate co equal co eternal persons. you destroy your own point, and make mine true. God is spirit he is not a person, you look up the definition of person, and that of distinct. please don't come with the human understanding of person isn't the same as in the Bible. Cause no in the Bible is God, Jesus, or the HolyGhost referred to as a person.
Praise Him
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Post by soterking on Jul 11, 2007 14:14:17 GMT -5
Seraphim,
You don't believe in a personal God? Even when the text uses personal pronouns to describe Him?
Seraphim:If u say the father acts like a person, and u say Jesus acts like a person. You indicate that God is on one side and Jesus stands beside him. that my friend is seperate.
Are you insinuating that they don't "act" like distinct persons?
And it's not me that is indicating the above... that is your contention and indication. So since I am not indicating such, therefore your conclusion is faulty being based upon a false premise.
What are we supposed to refer God as? Since the text uses nouns and verbs to describe the interaction between God and His people and the Father and the Son our definitional range is limited between these three words...person, place or thing. Now which label best describes God while maintaining His integrity as a supernatural, ominipresent, omnipotent, omniscient being??
later, Soter King
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Post by joseph7 on Jul 11, 2007 17:39:12 GMT -5
JESUS said in Rev.chapter 3 verse 21 "..even as I AM overcome and AM sat down with my FATHER IN HIS THRONE". John only saw ONE GOD sitting on ONE THRONE in Rev chapter 4 later we see the LAMB(the humanity) coming forth OUT of the MIDST of that ONE THRONE.From Exodus chapter 28 and many other descriptions, there is NEVER more than ONE throne with ONE sitting on it mentioned.Where are the other 2 thrones?They are missing.If they are mentioned, the do not have the prominence the ONE throne has suggesting one is above the other 2 blowing the co-equal doctrine out the window.Also, when has 3 people ever been one person?Unless it is an actor with a mask, this is abnormal and if we are created in GOD'S image,I want my other 2 co-equal clones, so I can send them to work and make them pay their 2/3rd's of everything. I am body soul and spirit, but my spirit is not another separate distinct person,my soul is not a separate distinct person, my flesh is not a separate distinct person.
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Post by soterking on Jul 12, 2007 9:23:31 GMT -5
Joseph, "..even as I AM overcome and AM sat down with my FATHER IN HIS THRONE". How many is in that phrase? One? Two? Fourteen?? What does the preposition "with" mean? From Exodus chapter 28 and many other descriptions, there is NEVER more than ONE throne with ONE sitting on it mentioned.And yet...here there are TWO sitting on ONE throne. Now in light of toto scriptura how is a person supposed to collate that according to the evidence while maintaining the integrity of the evidence itself? ?? Where are the other 2 thrones?First of all, again, a straw man argument. I've never said that there was more than one throne. That, once again, is your conclusion and you arguing against what you suppose is the necessary trinitarian conclusion. But that, friend, is a figment of your imagination...which makes the rest of that paragraph an exercise in sophistry. Nothing more. I am body soul and spirit, but my spirit is not another separate distinct person,my soul is not a separate distinct person, my flesh is not a separate distinct person. Do you have intimate intelligent conversations between your body, soul and spirit? Do they express love between themselves for all to see? Does your body talk to your spirit, out loud, presuming that your spirit has the ability to hear and understand what your body is saying?? Or has your body ever said this to your soul ..."Glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was"?Or has your body ever said to your soul, "As my soul sent me so my body sends you."You are comparing apples with oranges, my friend. Also....let me repeat myself... What are we supposed to refer God as? Since the text uses nouns and verbs to describe the interaction between God and His people and the Father and the Son our definitional range is limited between these three words...person, place or thing. Now which label best describes God while maintaining His integrity as a supernatural, ominipresent, omnipotent, omniscient being??Soter King
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Post by onwardbound on Jul 12, 2007 10:14:24 GMT -5
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Post by onwardbound on Jul 12, 2007 10:20:40 GMT -5
You find a distinction between the eternal Spirit of God and the man Christ. The humanity of Christ could not know these things (Mark 13:32), so Jesus Christ knew them only through the Spirit. In addition, the deity of Christ was not a product of His humanity, but the divine human union was a product of the deity. Revelations reveals things to come, but it also reveals the deity of Jesus Christ, and the knowledge of both must come from the Spirit of God. If you keep reading Revelation you will read that Jesus is God (first and the last) and John seen a vision of Jesus in "all" the power and glory of God. God, in Isaiah, said that no glory will go to another.
If there is only one God and that God is the Father (Malachi 2:10), and if Jesus is God (and He is), then it logically follows that Jesus is the revelation of the Father.
Isaiah 9:6 calls the Son the everlasting Father. Jesus is the Son prophesied about and there is only one Father (Malachi 2:10; Ephesians 4:6), so Jesus must be God the Father revealed in the Son.
Colossians 2:9 proclaims that all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The Godhead includes the role of the Father, so the Father must dwell in Jesus.
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Post by soterking on Jul 12, 2007 14:10:53 GMT -5
Onward,
What text is there that gives you permission to equate the God-man, or the deity/flesh dichotomy of Jesus, as being a Father/Jesus dichotomy?? Where is such a verse? If there is such a verse then the question still remains why define that dichotomy as being a dichotomy of manifestations instead of persons especially since that dichotomy gives the impression that we're still dealing with two distinct personal realities??
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Post by joseph7 on Jul 12, 2007 15:57:25 GMT -5
When you use the word "WITH" in Revelation 14 realize that GOD is omnipresent.Trinitarians either do not believe this or don't understand it.JESUS who sat down with HIS FATHER, in HIS THRONE also HAD HIS FATHER indwelling HIM as HE said in John 14:7-11. So when you say JESUS is sitting at the right hand of the FATHER, that means he sits on the floor since you say there arent 2 more thrones right? Doesnt sound like co-equal to me.YET it does say JESUS sits with HIS FATHER in HIS throne.JESUS the man who is the human manifestation of GOD the FATHER, not a pagan god the son become flesh. This SAME MAN JESUS has the FULLNESS of ALL GOD'S deity manifested in him.HE has been given ALL POWER and AUTHORITY in Heaven and in earth.This is why HE sits with HIS FATHER in HIS throne because HE is the ONLY mediator between GOD and man.A mediator represents BOTH sides(humanity and DEITY in this case)100%. If GOD is body soul and spirit like me and has conversations with each one because they have a separate identity each, then we are NOT made in HIS image otherwise we would ALL have 3 personalities.It says GOD councils with HIS own will. We do the same thing.When Daniel told the King "we will interpret the dream..' only Daniel spoke the Revelation of the dream to him.Daniel didn't have other personalities in himself. Glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was" Easy.In the beginning was the word(LOGOS-thought idea expression of oneself, NOT persona meaning person) and the word was with GOD and the word WAS GOD(not a pagan god the son, you never see the phrase god the son) and the word became flesh. When the fullness of time came GOD sent forth HIS SON made of a woman.It doesnt say HE sent forth his co eternal son and he became flesh.You do not see conversations between a pagan god the son and the father he is supposed to be co equal to yet doesnt get his own throne in heaven.You find the son has a beginning which this was in the the mind of GOD as LOGOS before the world began.Nowhere does JESUS EVER claim to be a pagan god the son incarnate but he DOES claim to be the FATHER in human form, according to Isaiah 9:6,7:14. John 14:7-11. This pretty much blows the god the son theology out of the water.What do we refer to GOD as?Not what but WHO.HIS name is JESUS.
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Post by crazydreamer on Jul 14, 2007 14:59:01 GMT -5
The best way I can think of is to describe it in reference to myself. I am one person, but in the lives of my family I am a daughter, a mother and a grandmother. I play different roles in the lives of each of them and thay call me by different names. My mother calls my by the name she gave me, my kids call me Mom, and my grandson calls me Nana, and I play a different role in each of their lives, but this does not mean I am more than one person, these are just parts of me that define who I am.
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 15, 2007 0:34:50 GMT -5
soter king
Once again "God IS Spirit." this is Jesus's own testemony. God is not a person, he is invisible the only one you will see sitting will be Jesus.
How many can call themselves alpha and omega. You can only have one first and one last. Not two and not three.
To believe in a personal God does not make him a person or did you get that mixed up.
Jesus did the will of the father what is distinct about that. If God told him to jump he jumped hiw will was his fathers will.
Jesus prayed in the flesh, his human nature could do nothing on it's own, but yet it gave into the will of God. Show me where they were seperate in thought action and deed. To say they are distict would have to be that Jesus had his own will and he acted according to that.
Then show me where the Holyghost showed what his person was. were did he speak. Heck show me where anyone in the bible taught trinity, or said that God was triune.
Praise Him
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Post by soterking on Jul 18, 2007 6:51:07 GMT -5
Crazydreamer,
Psalms 89:6 6 For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD ? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings?
Isaiah 40:18, 18 To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?
Isaiah 40:25,
25 "To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One.
Isaiah 46:5
5 "To whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?
We cannot rationalize Him away. You cannot use your experience of existence and juxtapose that with His being.
Trinitarians are not guilty of this fallacy because we do not know of any other being that is tri-personal. We do not make claims of 'how' the trinity can be...but we just state that the trinity is...using the terms with the appropriate definitions applied to those terms that make the terms mean anything.
We use the information given because if God wanted to convey a different message then we believe in His ability to do so so much that we have no doubt that He would have. If He wanted us to believe in a Oneness concept of God then He wouldn't have acted tri-personal.
I will reply to joseph and seriphim later, Soter King
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 18, 2007 21:57:30 GMT -5
Huh tri-personal. God acted tri-personal. then on top of that you use scriptures that say that God is one and there is no other person beside him. The question he ased was a challenge, to name someone who you can say is just like him.
If he was tri-personal the psalmist could of said Duh, the Holyghost.
The trinity is a false doctorine, No one in the bible Taught that God was three persons, no one!
the only thing you have is at the baptism of Jesus, and even there Know one saw any persons, John saw the Holyghost in the bodily shape of a dove as a sign, it was not a seperate person but God himself decending , then they heard his voice. still no person, Jesus the word he spoke were not his words but that of the father, so then ther repeatedly heard the voice of God through Jesus. If God was three persons then you would repeatedly see all three talking and in the same place at the same time through out scripture.
there can be only one alpha and Omega, only one with ALL power in heaven and earth. If there were a God the Father and God the Holyghost then the apostles left them out in alot.
The trinity is a theory that didn't show up until way after the death of Christ. No one of the true church taught it. Now if you want to say it was revealed to other later on and not to the apostles you are surely mistatken.
Show me who taught a triune God in the bible. Heck Jews are completley monthiesitic and have never veiwed God as triune and they are his chosen people the ones he revealed himself too.
Toooooooooooooooooo many people have explained everthing as to what every scripture verse that any trinitarian has brought up. but you guys refuse to see it and want to hold on too a false doctorine.
I mean you act as if God is stupid that when he made the comments that he created the heavens and the earth ALONE, that there is no God BESIDE him neither is their any savior. That when said I AM GOD and there is NONE ELSE. nope he didn't know what he was talking about cause obviously there was god the son and god the holyghost looking at god the father like he just lied or something.
Like i said the scriptures you used in now way says he acted tri-personal, if you get that from those scripture then there is clearly no revelation and no need for you to respond to me or josehp.
Praise Him
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Post by soterking on Jul 20, 2007 6:54:07 GMT -5
seraphim,
Huh tri-personal. God acted tri-personal. then on top of that you use scriptures that say that God is one and there is no other person beside him. The question he ased was a challenge, to name someone who you can say is just like him.
When the Father speaks to the Son as if He's a person, when the Son speaks to the Father as if He's a person, and when the Son speaks of the Holy Spirit as if He's a person, and when the Holy Spirit communicates to the church as if the Holy Spirit is a person......then I'd say, by deduction, you have a God that is, at least, "acting" tri-personal.
The difference is we trinitarians don't believe He's acting.
Duh!
more later, soter king
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 20, 2007 22:14:18 GMT -5
I say again tri-personal....
Jesus said that the comforter would come then later said he would comfort us....he was speaking of himself after his death.
It is a moot conversation trinity is rooted in man theology. If you can show me where they TEACH God is tri personal, not some saying "well duh god acted tri-personal then he must be" that is your own interpretation it is not rooted in truth. Trinity comes from man and i mean men outside of the bible with no understanding. Please dont come with the fifty thousand scripture that you want to point out to show God as tri personal. everyone who beleives in the one God has explained re-explained, gave one revelation after the other to tell you the truth of scripture you refuse to see it.
God IS spirt. IS spirt not was, not is person God IS spirit. he will always be. Of course he is intellegent he created the heavens and the eart ALONE you cant be alone with two other people.
Praise Him
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Post by joseph7 on Jul 22, 2007 22:34:47 GMT -5
Paul said 'whoever has NOT the SPIRIT of CHRIST he is NONE of HIS.Now JESUS said THE FATHER dwelled in HIM and it also talks about the SAME SPIRIT that dwells in CHRIST if it dwells in us will quicken our mortal bodies.JESUS said the FATHER dwelled in HIM and Paul said there is ONE SPIRIT in you all and through you all.This is the EXACT SAME SPIRIT THAT lived in JESUS and who is ALSO the comforter,NOT another person sorry try again.The HOLY GHOST is the FATHER they are one and the SAME being, just 2 different attribute title names.
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Post by soterking on Jul 23, 2007 11:47:38 GMT -5
Joseph, When you use the word "WITH" in Revelation 14 realize that GOD is omnipresent.Trinitarians either do not believe this or don't understand it.JESUS who sat down with HIS FATHER, in HIS THRONE also HAD HIS FATHER indwelling HIM as HE said in John 14:7-11. ...and He indwells the Father.... 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. (John 14:10-11). Does the Father have a body which Jesus dwells in?? The parallelism is evident here for Jesus is saying "the same way that I am in the Father, the Father is in me" Hence the question...Does the Father have a body which Jesus dwells in?? The answer is no, of course. Which means that Jesus is explaining that there is a ontological personal "in-ness" between Him and His Father that transcends a body or any physical constituents of such. That NECESSARILY makes the "in-ness" an intelligent, intimate "in-ness" that can ONLY be attributed to "persons"....which, by the way, illumines John 17:5... The fact that God is omnipresent does not take away the definitional force of the preposition "with". If He is "with" me and "with" you does the fact that He is omnipresent mean that He's not "with" either one of us??? I think not. So the point your making is not only moot but a little convoluted. John 17:5.... 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. What does the word "with" mean here?? If Jesus and the Father are not two distinct persons then this verse cannot be made sense of. If the word "with" does not denote something Jesus had "with" someone other than Himself at a time in the past, then this verse means nothing. So what's your point??[/color] So when you say JESUS is sitting at the right hand of the FATHER, that means he sits on the floor since you say there arent 2 more thrones right? Why are you asking me to read something into the text that is not there?? Im saying what the scriptures say....Revelation 3:21 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. Now will we, the one's who overcome, sit on the floor??? That's going to be a crowded seat. Since we will sit on Jesus' throne with Him does that negate our personhood?? No...then why would you conclude that when Jesus sits with His father on His throne that negates Jesus' personhood?? Inconsistency is evidence of a failed argument, my friend. Doesnt sound like co-equal to me. Once again a Oneness Pentecostal confuses ontology with function. Jesus can be co-equal as far as ontology is concerned while being subordinate as far as function is concerned. Being the CEO is "functionally" superior than being an employee. However, being the CEO is NOT "ontologically" superior than being an employee. Both of the offices are occupied by 'humans'. Being the Father is "functionally" superior than being the Son...but not "ontologically" superior than being the Son since they both share the same nature. As Philippians 2 says one person gives up His divine perogatives voluntarily...that does not deny the equality (ontologically) between the one being sent and the One sending. YET it does say JESUS sits with HIS FATHER in HIS throne.JESUS the man who is the human manifestation of GOD the FATHER, Where does it say this??? You state the second sentence as if that is an explanation of the first. Where is the text that would explain the first sentence in the way your second sentence does?? I can bring you more evidence that Jesus is God the Son (a phrase which you hate) than Jesus the man who is the human manifestation of God the FATHER. By the way, which one is the person...Jesus or the Father??? One of them has to be in order for "love" in verbal form or in noun form to mean anything?? not a pagan god the son become flesh. Of course you would say the above because I have already demonstrated that you have a problem with the word "with" and nouns and personal pronouns, subject/object distinctions between the Father and the Son, and pouring any kind of defintional integrity into the word "love".This SAME MAN JESUS has the FULLNESS of ALL GOD'S deity manifested in him.HE has been given ALL POWER and AUTHORITY in Heaven and in earth.This is why HE sits with HIS FATHER in HIS throne because HE is the ONLY mediator between GOD and man.A mediator represents BOTH sides(humanity and DEITY in this case)100%. No problem here. If GOD is body soul and spirit like me and has conversations with each one because they have a separate identity each, Nobody is equating God to the human experience except in your invalid straw man arguments against the trinity. And I am not equating the idea of "personhood" with a body soul and spirit...that is your rationalization of what the trinity states. When we use the word "person" we are talking in metaphysical terms, i.e. a term and reality that does not necessarily tie itself to matter. then we are NOT made in HIS image otherwise we would ALL have 3 personalities. Why?? If we are made in His image we would only need to be ONE person to reflect His image. We are image bearers but yet we are not all powerful, or omniscient, so why would our "personhood" be as complex as His if His other attributes are not on a one to one ratio with ours. Your inference is invalid. It says GOD councils with HIS own will. We do the same thing.When Daniel told the King "we will interpret the dream..' only Daniel spoke the Revelation of the dream to him.Daniel didn't have other personalities in himself. Uh actually if you read Daniel 2:27 you'll understand that Daniel was speaking of him AND God...so that's two. Invalid argument.Glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was" Easy.In the beginning was the word(LOGOS-thought idea expression of oneself, NOT persona meaning person) and the word was with GOD and the word WAS GOD(not a pagan god the son, you never see the phrase god the son) and the word became flesh. How can an idea or expression have glory??? This is simple sophistry. An OP wouldn't even have an argument without being sophistic. If you believe that the LOGOS is just an idea or expression, never mind the fact that the pre-incarnate Word created all that is, then the Logos CANNOT be God for the Logos would be contingent therefore disallowing John's argument in John 1:1c...and the Word was God. As far as the phrase "God the Son" (which is the weakest argument of all...because an inference can be made that would lead to the same conclusion even though the exact wording is not present) John 1:18 18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. Do you know of someone else who is in the bosom of the Father...yet John calls that one God. How about the NIV John 1:18 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. Now juxapose the above information with John 12... 37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"[g] 39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40"He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them." 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. Now this is referring to....... Isaiah 6:1 1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory." Now take into account that John 1:18 says that no one has seen God at any time.....yet Isaiah said that he saw Jehovah with John agreeing with Isaiah. The only conclusion is that what John is saying is that no one has seen the Father, while Isaiah saw the Son, and Isaiah called Him Jehovah......which means that a safe inference could be made, based upon the evidence, that Isaiah saw God the Son. Whether you agree or not about such an inference doesn't matter.....however what you cannot discount is the pre-existence of Christ as being, functionally and ontologically, the same as the Father and not just an expression or an idea.
more later, soter king
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Post by soterking on Jul 23, 2007 14:10:14 GMT -5
Seraphim, I say again tri-personal....
Jesus said that the comforter would come then later said he would comfort us....he was speaking of himself after his death.If I say Joe is going to the store and he will get what is necessary to make spaghetti...and then I say Im not going to leave you feeling hunger Im going to the store....does that mean Im Joe. Of course not...Im still Soter and not Joe. It's just that we're both going to the store. Same way with Jesus' instructions concerning the role of the Holy Spirit, albeit not in a physical sense. The Holy Spirit is coming to comfort AND Jesus is coming to comfort.....I've got one more for you.......THE FATHER is also comforting. This is called the perichoresis....meaning that when you have one you have all three just as in John 14 when Jesus explains that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. Not a problem for the trinitarian. It is a moot conversation trinity is rooted in man theology. If you can show me where they TEACH God is tri personal, not some saying "well duh god acted tri-personal then he must be" that is your own interpretation it is not rooted in truth. Trinity comes from man and i mean men outside of the bible with no understanding. Please dont come with the fifty thousand scripture that you want to point out to show God as tri personal. everyone who beleives in the one God has explained re-explained, gave one revelation after the other to tell you the truth of scripture you refuse to see it. Man, seriously if I give you fifty thousand scriptures where God is "acting" tri-personal then why would you take someone's revelation or explanation that denies the obvious.....i.e. God is tri-personal. I accept the fifty thousand scriptures (and Im being hyperbolic as you were) and that is the basis and the apologetic for our belief....why would YOU refuse to believe? ? more later, soter king
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Post by ax on Jul 23, 2007 18:11:49 GMT -5
Arguing with a trinitarian is almost a waste of time. The Oneness of God is a revelation. Sometimes through discussion a person might see the light (because of revelation from God) but I recommend serious study of the Word while fasting and praying for Divine Revelation from God above.
Trinitarians need to stop and ask themselves this question. If Jesus can be referred to as "God", and if he is separate from Jehovah the Father, how can you then say that there is only one God? You couldn't. And Bible scriptures plainly teach ONE God, not three persons.
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Post by joseph7 on Jul 23, 2007 19:28:07 GMT -5
The trinity is rooted in paganism,purely a roman catholic creation.Anyone who believes it is deceived and is a child the RCC.
The Bible says "whoever has NOT the SPIRIT of CHRIST(THE HOLY SPIRIT-COMFORTER) he is NONE of HIS". The Bible also says "there is ONE SPIRIT that is in you all and through you all. Now if CHRIST is a separate distinct person then how can you have 2 SPIRITS indwelling you,seeing CHRIST refers to JESUS and comforter refers to the HOLY SPIRIT? JESUS also said "the FATHER dwelled in HIM" So according to the trinity theory, we only have one SPIRIT but 3 persons indwelling us.Yet it says ONE SPIRIT.JESUS told HIS apostles not to worry about what to say when brought before the authorities for an answer.In one record it says "I will give you what to say"another it will be the HOLY SPIRIT speaking" the next Your FATHER will give you what to say".Either all3 are the same being or people are going to be confused as to who to listen to.Now how much time have you spent in worshipping the FATHER SON HOLY GHOST?I hope you haven't spent too much time with one and neglected the other 2.
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Post by soterking on Jul 24, 2007 6:52:22 GMT -5
ax, Arguing with a trinitarian is almost a waste of time. Then don't. The Oneness of God is a revelation. Sometimes through discussion a person might see the light (because of revelation from God) but I recommend serious study of the Word while fasting and praying for Divine Revelation from God above.I recommend the same. Trinitarians need to stop and ask themselves this question. If Jesus can be referred to as "God", and if he is separate from Jehovah the Father, how can you then say that there is only one God? You couldn't. And Bible scriptures plainly teach ONE God, not three persons. You should ask yourself this question...."Why is it that the only thing an Oneness Pentecostal is consistent about is their insistence on straw man arguments? ?" Since trinitarians DON'T say that Jesus is separate from the Father you question is an invalid one. The fact that He is NOT separate from the Father means that there is only one God. As many times as you have discussed this with trinitarians you should know better than apply a straw man. But, alas, you're no different than the rest....that's the only arrow in your quiver. soter king
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Post by soterking on Jul 24, 2007 14:09:52 GMT -5
Joseph, When the fullness of time came GOD sent forth HIS SON made of a woman.It doesnt say HE sent forth his co eternal son and he became flesh.Actually it does say that in John 1:14. The same Word that was "with" God and who was God became flesh. I know you think the Word is just an expression or a thought, again I ask, then in what sense could it be said that the Word was God??? You can give me the answer well "like a man is his word the same way God is his word" which is kind of illusory and allusive in meaning. What does that mean?? It actually has no meaning at all...which, in conclusion, saying that the Word in John 1 is the expression of God holds the same type of definitional status......none. You do not see conversations between a pagan god the son and the father he is supposed to be co equal to yet doesnt get his own throne in heaven.Again, you're right there is no conversation between a "pagan god the son" and the Father...because a "pagan god the son" does not exist and never has....except maybe anachronistically in the pagan mind, or yours. However, the Christian God the Son does exist and always has and if you want to read such a conversation then let me direct you to Hebrews 1. There's your conversation. You find the son has a beginning which this was in the the mind of GOD as LOGOS before the world began.Where is this nice little story at in the text...that the son was an idea in the mind of God....where is that? Not in John 1. Again, how can an idea have glory? ? I understand how I can have an idea and it can be glorious TO ME....but it confounds me how I can have an idea and it be glorious to that idea. How can Isaiah SEE this glory which Jesus speaks of in John 17:5 and then come to the conclusion...."Oh that's just God thinking." No... Isaiah saw GOD's glory. Of course he then hears the angels say, "Holy Holy Holy...LORD Expression", right" Or was it, "Holy, Holy, Holy LORD what a great idea you are" ?? No Isaiah seen GOD....and John, with further revelation and exposition, says that Isaiah saw...uh the SON OF GOD. Nowhere does JESUS EVER claim to be a pagan god the son incarnate but he DOES claim to be the FATHER in human form, according to Isaiah 9:6,7:14. John 14:7-11.Right on the first account.....wrong on the second. No He doesn't proclaim to be a "pagan son of god". No He doesn't proclaim to be the Father. Try again. This pretty much blows the god the son theology out of the water.What do we refer to GOD as?Not what but WHO.HIS name is JESUS. And yet you ask the question "WHAT do we refer to God as? ?? HUH ! ! ! ! later, soter king
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 24, 2007 15:50:44 GMT -5
If I say Joe is going to the store and he will get what is necessary to make spaghetti...and then I say Im not going to leave you feeling hunger Im going to the store....does that mean Im Joe. Of course not...Im still Soter and not Joe. It's just that we're both going to the store.
Same way with Jesus' instructions concerning the role of the Holy Spirit, albeit not in a physical sense. The Holy Spirit is coming to comfort AND Jesus is coming to comfort.....I've got one more for you.......THE FATHER is also comforting. This is called the perichoresis....meaning that when you have one you have all three just as in John 14 when Jesus explains that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him.
Not a problem for the trinitarian
I wont even lie to you the statement above is reatarded.
There is but one spirit. If Jesus is the comforter and the Holyghost is the comferter and the father then it would be one God, Not a tri-personal one. There is but ONE spirit. GOD IS SPIRIT.
Ther Is ONE LORD ONE FAITH AND ONE BAPTISM
ONE GOD and FATHER of all, who is above all, and THROUGH ALL, and IN YOU ALL... "Anyone who can worship a Trinity and insist that his religion is monotheistic can believe anything." (Robert A. Heinlein)
you wont have 50 million scripture that say God is triune, you wont find one that even mentions God is triune. What you have is a bunch of Scripture you dont understand and insist that it means God is tri-personal.
"We are dealing with personifications rather than persons, personified action of God rahter than an individual divine being as such." (James Dunn)
As I said there is no point in this ongoing discussion, Look up trinity and you will find out who taught it. Like I said Jews are monotheistic, The church of Christ is Monotheistic. Christ did not teach God was Triune, nor the apostle, nor any jew.
Praise Him
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 24, 2007 16:03:06 GMT -5
you say this to ax
Since trinitarians DON'T say that Jesus is separate from the Father you question is an invalid one. The fact that He is NOT separate from the Father means that there is only one God.
You say this to Joseph
Again, you're right there is no conversation between a "pagan god the son" and the Father...because a "pagan god the son" does not exist and never has....except maybe anachronistically in the pagan mind, or yours. However, the Christian God the Son does exist and always has and if you want to read such a conversation then let me direct you to Hebrews 1. There's your conversation.
It sounds to me that you are saying Jesus Has his own body seperate from that of the father. That Jesus is not the father.
Is Jesus the Father?
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Post by soterking on Jul 25, 2007 9:30:00 GMT -5
Seraphim, Oh good grief man ! My example was meant to illustrate how logic has to be used in language, and not meant to be expositive of the relationship between the Holy Spirit and Jesus. If a subject of a sentence says that an action is the action of a predicate, that does not necessarily mean that if the subject enacts the same action that the subject is the same as the predicate. To say such is fallacious not to mention that the antecedent is not the Holy Spirit but Jesus...John 14:18 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. The one coming in this sentence is Jesus and there is no need to equate His coming as meaning that He is really saying..."Pssst Im the Holy Spirit". He has already stated that "another" comforter, other than Himself (for that's what the word "another" means) is coming thereby making the relationship between the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit AND believer more intimate. There's no need to read John 14 cryptically, in fact doing so dismisses the mystery of the Godhead by trying to rationalize it and does not account for the word "another" (as I've already stated) nor the personal pronouns that Jesus uses when speaking of the Holy Spirit.
The OP interpretation damages the text and the meaning and makes one wonder if they take grammar seriously.
So it might be that if someone cannot account for the grammar of the text, and the logic of language, then a counter claim of retardation might be in order. However, my contention is one of obscurantism and not retardation.
more later, soter king
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Post by soterking on Jul 25, 2007 11:59:31 GMT -5
Seraphim, I wont even lie to you the statement above is reatarded. When you call into question someone's mental capabilities you probably should spell the word correctly. There is but one spirit. If Jesus is the comforter and the Holyghost is the comferter and the father then it would be one God, Not a tri-personal one. There is but ONE spirit. GOD IS SPIRIT.Your conclusion does not necessarily follow. In logic you have to differentiate between ontology and identity. God is Spirit speaks to His ontology (i.e. His mode of "being"). Father, Son and Holy Spirit speaks to His identity. Just because there is one "spirit" does not negate the fact of three personal identities, because saying that there is one "spirit" is speaking about "what" God is, i.e. He is a spiritual being; immaterial. So John 4:24 is talking about God's nature not equating Him in totality, in that verse, with the Holy Spirit. Ther Is ONE LORD ONE FAITH AND ONE BAPTISMOk? Does not negate what I have already said. ONE GOD and FATHER of all, who is above all, and THROUGH ALL, and IN YOU ALL... Ok????Does not negate what I have already said. "Anyone who can worship a Trinity and insist that his religion is monotheistic can believe anything." (Robert A. Heinlein)Not interested in what Mr. Heinlein says. Big deal. I can pull out a multitude of quotes that would discount what Mr. Heinlein says. you wont have 50 million scripture that say God is triune, you wont find one that even mentions God is triune. Matthew 28:19 at least that's a mention. There are plenty more. What you have is a bunch of Scripture you dont understand and insist that it means God is tri-personal. How do you know I don't understand them. I used to be OP...I think they don't understand them right along with you. You have to prove it, not just say it. And so far I don't think you have. "We are dealing with personifications rather than persons, personified action of God rahter than an individual divine being as such." (James Dunn)See my point regarding Robert Heinlein above. Same thing applies. more later, soter king
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Post by soterking on Jul 25, 2007 14:10:17 GMT -5
Seraphim,
I have spent about the last ten years studying what non-trinitarians claim the trinity is and what trinitarians say the trinity is. There is a difference between the two.
Where should i look to find out who taught the trinity??? Would that source tell me anything that I haven't already heard before?? Most likely not. I've pretty much heard everything concerning this subject, both positive and negative...with the negative mostly being irrelevant to the truth or falsehood of the doctrine itself.
It sounds to me that you are saying Jesus Has his own body seperate from that of the father. That Jesus is not the father.
Well...yeah... since the Father doesn't have a body. It doesn't say that the Father became flesh it says the Word became flesh.
Is Jesus the Father?
Of course not. That's basic trinitarian doctrine. Funny how you tell me to look up something concerning the trinity when in reality it is you that could use some education on this subject.
soter king
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Post by onenessbeliever on Jul 25, 2007 18:06:45 GMT -5
Jesus Christ is God Incarnate "...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." --MATTHEW 1:23 "...if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." --JESUS CHRIST, JOHN 8:24 Proofs from the word of God, The Authorized King James Bible of 1611 NOT NIV, NKJV, NASB, TLB, RSV, et al-- they corrupt this precious truth. They are part of a ghastly array of hundreds of Satanic modern-day Bibles. God Jesus God never changes. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Jesus never changes. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. God is the only Saviour. "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11 To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12 God our Saviour. Titus 2:10 ...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10 God my Saviour. Luke 1:47 Jesus is the only Saviour. ...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14 ...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18 ...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1 ...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42 ...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4 a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11 Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4:12 ...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. --2 Timothy 2:10 ...captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings. -- Heb 2:10 [Jesus]...author of eternal salvation... -- Heb 5:9 God Jesus God created the universe and earth by Himself. I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1 Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth. nto the Son he saith...Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10
y him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3 God Jesus God is the Word. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1 Jesus is the Word. ...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14 God Jesus God is the first and the last.
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4 Jesus is the first and the last.
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
God Jesus God forgives sins. [T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3
"[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7 Jesus forgives sins. Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5 God Jesus God is our redeemer. [T]hou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16 Jesus redeemed us. [T]the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14 God Jesus God is one.
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4 Jesus and God are one.
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14
Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 God has a Son.
[T]he LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7 Jesus is God's Son.
... [Jesus] said also that God was his Father... John 5:18
God Jesus God is the Holy One Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.
Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm) Jesus is the Holy One. Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. God Jesus Only God is worshipped. ... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10 Jesus is worshipped. While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18
And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6
And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28 God Jesus God is Messiah. ...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is Messiah. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26 God Jesus God is from everlasting.
The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2 Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is from everlasting.
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2
God Jesus Only God is glorified. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isaiah 42:8 God glorified Jesus. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23
But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8 God Jesus God is 'I am'. And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14 Jesus is 'I am'. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58 God heals all diseases. Bless the LORD...who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2 Jesus heals all diseases. [Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16 God is the Judge of the whole earth. O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2
[Abraham to God]...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25 Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth. [T]he Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22 God has life in Himself. [T]he Father hath life in himself; John 5:26 Jesus has life in Himself. so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself;
In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4 God raises the dead. [T]he Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21 Jesus raises the dead. [T]he Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Conclusion...
Jesus Christ is God
The scriptures bear abundant testimony that Jesus Christ is God. Some liberal preacher will say to me, "You take the Bible literally. It's just myths." I answer, "Yes, I believe the Bible 100%. It is the word of God. If you don't believe it, Jesus is of no effect to you, ye are yet in your sins."
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Additional Verses:
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"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."
--1 Timothy 3:16
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"But unto the SON he saith, 'Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom'...And, 'Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.'"
-- Hebrews 1:8, 10
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"I and my Father are ONE."
--Jesus Christ, John 10:30
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"...CHRIST JESUS...being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
--Philippians 2:5-8
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"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
--1 John 5:7
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"... feed the church of GOD, which he hath purchased with his OWN BLOOD."
--Acts 20:28
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"Hereby perceive we the love of GOD, because he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us...
--1 John 3:16
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"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon GOD, and saying, LORD JESUS, receive my spirit."
--Acts 7:59
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"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."
--Isaiah 9:6
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"And Thomas answered and said unto him [JESUS], My Lord and MY GOD."
--John 20:28
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"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
--John 1:1-4, 14
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"Philip saith unto him, 'Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.' Jesus saith unto him, 'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?''"
-- John 14:8-9
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"...CHRIST, who is the IMAGE OF GOD..."
--II Corinthians 4:4
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"...glory of GOD in the FACE OF JESUS CHRIST."
--II Corinthians 4:6
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"GOD...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his SON...who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON..."
--Hebrews 1:1-3
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Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 1:15 WHO IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn* of every creature: 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
*firstborn: pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term 'firstborn' is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called 'firstborn' although he was actually the youngest son.
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"For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
-- Colossians 2:9
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"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
--Matthew 1:23
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"The voice of him [John the Baptist] that crieth in the wilderness, PREPARE ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway FOR OUR GOD."
-- Isaiah 40:3
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THESE PEOPLE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT JESUS WAS GOD AND THOUGHT HE BLASPHEMED WHEN HE TOLD THE TRUTH. "The Jews answered [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
-- John 10:33
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Addenda from justbible.com--
Some cults teach that Jesus was God's first Creation, and that Christ then Created the universe we know. This is a verse cults use to support their false doctrine.
("Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;")
This verse also.
("John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. ")
They say, "See, he was in the beginning with God."
They will even use this verse.
("Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.")
_________
Now for the Truth, from God's word, let's compare Scripture with Scripture.
If you only read this verse, you might think it was talking about Jesus, and that he was set up.
But if you read the chapter, you will realize who or what it is talking about.
("Proverbs 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.")
Wisdom, not Christ. The whole chapter is about wisdom personified. To make it even more clear that it is not Christ, wisdom is spoken of as female.
("Proverbs 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places,...")
Let's see what the Bible says about Christ.
("Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:") ("John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.")
He created everything that was created, and nothing was created by anyone but him. If Christ made all things then he must have existed before everything that was created. ("Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.") He is the one and only Creator. If he created all things then did he create himself? No, he can't be a created being. He existed before the beginning. He is from Everlasting. ("Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.") Jehovah God said: ("Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.") Jesus Christ said: ("Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.") ("Revelation 1:18 Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.")
Hosanna in the Highest! Jesus is Jehovah!
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 25, 2007 23:38:24 GMT -5
It sounds to me that you are saying Jesus Has his own body seperate from that of the father. That Jesus is not the father.
Well...yeah... since the Father doesn't have a body. It doesn't say that the Father became flesh it says the Word became flesh.
Is Jesus the Father?
Of course not. That's basic trinitarian doctrine. Funny how you tell me to look up something concerning the trinity when in reality it is you that could use some education on this subject.
soter king
Once again seperate, Jesus is seperarte from the father.
You yell of course not but oneness believe that Jesus is the father. why? well Isaiah said that he shall be called everlasting father. Or was he not telling the truth. If Jesus is to be called the everlasting father then how many everlasting fathers are there. Yes I have studied the trinity and as I used the quote above. If you believe the trinity and insist that it is monotheistic then yes you ban believe anything.
You use Matt 28:19, why don't you study up on that verse and find out where it came from. Second for Jesus to make that commandment then the Apostles interpreted it to be in the Name of Jesus, they still did not teach a triune God. neither did Jesus. That fact that he said NAME not NAMES. Peter baptized in the name of Jesus. So either he was completely disobedient or he understood what Christ "said" in matt 28:19..
like I said no where in scripture do they teach God is tri une. The bible does not say that the word was a god but that the same god that was in the begining was also that very same word.
God revealed himself to the jewish people and they do not believe he is triune in no way shape or form. No either he lied to them or he never really revealed his nature to them. Neither did Christ open the understanding of the Apostles.
Praise Him
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Post by soterking on Jul 26, 2007 7:08:41 GMT -5
Seraphim,
First of all, I wasn't yelling.
Second, the phrase in Isaiah calls Jesus the "father of eternities" NOT equating Him with the Father.
Third, distinct not separate. The three persons in the Godhead SHARE the same nature, i.e. deity, therefore making them DISTINCT and NOT separate.
Fourth, I don't believe that you know what you are talking about therefore...you contention is proving false and your argument, that if I can believe the trinity I can believe anything, is fallacious.
Fifth, I have studied the argument concerning Matthew 28:19 and found the argument to be special pleading. Just because someone doesn't want it in the text doesn't mean that it doesn't belong.
Sixth, just because Peter MAY have used a Jesus only formula does not negate the grammar in Matthew 28:19. Maybe you should study the greek of Matthew 28:19.
Seventh, Matthew 28:19 IS a tri-une verse so I have showed you, AT LEAST, one verse which discounts your contention that there isn't any.
soter
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