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Post by ax on Jun 3, 2007 11:58:09 GMT -5
How do you explain the Trinity?
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Post by ax on Jun 3, 2007 11:58:29 GMT -5
The trinity is false doctrine... it was made up in the Nicean council.
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Post by hisprophet on Jun 3, 2007 20:02:15 GMT -5
There is but one Lord and one God of us all... His name is Jesus Christ. The Trinity, is a discription of the persons of the God head... God is not a man nor is He limited by the physical relm of man's existance. He is an eternal being... the creator of all we behold. His wisdom is beyound man's understanding.
Therefore, when God says He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost but is one... we cannot fathom this with our mortal mind. God is a Spirit and as a Spirit He transends the physical relm of our current existance. It is possible for God to be the first and the last... all in the same breath. He is omnipresent... occupying every beleiver at the same moment in time. He is not limited by time or space and the laws of physics as we comprehend them today.
Therefore, it is possible for God to be three persons and yet be one. A physical example of this is water. Water comes in three forms: Ice a solid, Steam a gas/vapor, and Water a liquid. Each, form of water has it's own properties... physical body if you will. Each, form of water has it's own characteristics... personality if you will. Each, form of water has it's own name. However, they are all one... water. If we can accept this as an anology for the God-head, then, one can visualize how God can be three separate persons yet, ONE. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit all three ONE.
Your Brother in Christ;
Prophet.
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Post by dedicatedheart on Jun 3, 2007 20:10:00 GMT -5
"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).
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Post by hisprophet on Jun 3, 2007 20:49:12 GMT -5
It is easy to find fault with others... it is divine to forgive. Yet, we continue to degrade one another... Is it not written that by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, wether we be... jews or gentile, bond or free... all being made to drink of one Spirit?
The Body of Christ is not one member, but many... If the foot shall say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the Body; is it therefore not of the Body? Can the ear say because I am not the eye, I am not of the Body? How then can we say those members who differe in their manner are not of the Body? For, God has set every member in His Body as it pleased Him... not man.
There are many members but only one body... Neither can the eye say to the hand, I have no need of you. Nay, God hath said, "...those members of the Body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: and those members of the Body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: But God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked... that, there should be no schism in the Body; but that the members should have the same care one for another." (1Cor 12:22-25)
Some would exclude many as members in particular... claiming to be their judge, they would deny them as part of the Body. God, hath said that He is their judge and that He is no respector of persons... He judges righteously... looking into the very inward depths of man... seeing, where we cannot go. He alone knows His sheep... and He says, He has many flocks upon many hills. Why then do we seek to judge anothers faith, when we see only dimmly into the mysteries of God. Yea, saith the Lord... ye do judge in the flesh matters of the Spirit. Knowing in part ye can not judge in the whole... omitting the weighty matters of the Spirit, ye hold to the doctrines of men... judging as men.
There is only One Lord... One God of us all. It is He whom the trinity seeks to proclaim... the Nicean Council certainly was flawed. However, God uses the least... the uncommly members to bring more aboundant honour. Could it be that the principal of the Trinity has some merit; when examined in the Spirit of Truth... One Lord, One God and One Spirit. For, God chose to manifest Himself unto man as three (a trinity); the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I see no contradiction only symantics... the mixing of words and their meaing... creating confusion and misunderstanding... leading to a great schism in the Body of Christ. Who is the author of confusion and who divides the Body of Christ?
Let us therefore come together in the unity of the Faith... That we may be made perfect in love. Loving one another as God loved us; even while we were yet sinners. O' my soul cries out at the disparity and misunderstanding of many in the Body... Those who would persecute their brothers and sisters? Put away your emnity and take up the cross of Christ... Let your love be spoken of... give to those who oppose themselves, that they may see. That they may learn from the elders among the Body.
Daily, I pray for the Chruch... for the Body of Christ... That we may all come into the unity of faith... growing into the full measure and stature of Jesus Chist... Forgiving our brothers and sisters, lifting up the weak in faith... restoring the wounded soldiers of Christ. Is there not enough persecution in the world? Do we need to destroy the weak and wounded of the faith, with our doctrine? Can we reach out with love and build up the Body in Faith... giving the Word of God to those who lack that they may be filled?
Did Jesus not repremand His own deciples for desiring to rebuke others who were preaching Christ? Then rejoice that Christ is preached in the highways and bi-ways... that the world may see the love ye have for one another. That the household of God may be complet and furnished with love. Amen.
Your Brother in Christ;
Prophet.
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papadon
Junior Member
A redeemed TWOFOLD child of hell!
Posts: 57
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Post by papadon on Jun 4, 2007 20:17:38 GMT -5
How do I explain the Trinity? How about the same way I would try to explain the 17,000 pound gorilla that is now sitting in my bathroom. Yes, that's right! How does one explain something which doesn't even exist? I realize that this is perhaps a poor analogy, nevertheless it is just about the same.
How many Satans are there? One, two, or maybe he is a "triune" Satan! I read in the Bible where he is referred to as a serpent, beast, devil, false prophet, and a host of other titles. Does this mean that he is all of these things at once? Yes! And in exactly the same manner God is referred to by many titles, yet it is ONLY in His "visible" appearance/manifestation in human form is He called the "Son." Seeing that we are told in Genesis 1:27 that God created man "in his own image," and we are NOT a "triune" entity, then why is it that the majority of mankind are yet ignorant concerning the true identity of Christ Jesus, the man? The answer can be found in the words of Matthew 11:27 -
"All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and NO man knoweth the Son, BUT the Father; NEITHER knoweth any man the Father, SAVE the Son, AND he to whosoever the SON WILL REVEAL HIM."
You see, the "revelation" concerning the identity of the FATHER is only revealed to mankind by the Son (Christ Jesus Himself). Yet, when our Lord responded to the apostle Peter's "revealtion" concerning the identity of the SON, He stated that it was the FATHER who revealed this to him, therein proving that the FATHER (which is to say, "SPIRIT"), and the SON (which is to say, the human being in whom the "SPIRIT" dwelt without measure) were ONE and the SAME! Yet we find it explicitly stated in the words of I Corintians 1:6-7 that "there is not in every man THAT knowledge" (that is to say, a knowledge of the understanding of the Oneness of God).
Just a few personal thoughts regarding this important issue which confuses so many that are yet in a state of spiritual darkness regarding the true nature in which God has presented Himself to mankind as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. (Remember, a "ghost" is an invisible spiritual entity, and acknowledging that God is "Spirit," and that He alone is truly "Holy," then when one combines these two we have the true meaning of the phrase "Holy Spirit."
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Post by soterking on Jun 5, 2007 6:50:05 GMT -5
The Trinity was not MADE UP at Nicea
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Post by jcan071 on Jun 5, 2007 9:45:18 GMT -5
"How do you explain the Trinity?" Sounds like a interesting topic,sure would like to hear a little more,thanks.
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papadon
Junior Member
A redeemed TWOFOLD child of hell!
Posts: 57
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Post by papadon on Jun 5, 2007 10:53:12 GMT -5
"How do you explain the Trinity?" Sounds like a interesting topic,sure would like to hear a little more,thanks. Are you an Apostolic or Trinitarian? Knowing where you stand on this helps greatly in enabling others know where to begin.
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Post by soterking on Jun 5, 2007 11:46:15 GMT -5
Therefore, it is possible for God to be three persons and yet be one. A physical example of this is water. Water comes in three forms: Ice a solid, Steam a gas/vapor, and Water a liquid. Each, form of water has it's own properties... physical body if you will. Each, form of water has it's own characteristics... personality if you will. Each, form of water has it's own name. However, they are all one... water. If we can accept this as an anology for the God-head, then, one can visualize how God can be three separate persons yet, ONE. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit all three ONE
The problem with analogies is that they all break down in one aspect or another. The water analogy is not good to illustrate the Trinity because it can just as well illustrate modalism. Water cannot be steam liquid and gas at the same time. But God is always the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The same goes with the egg anaology.
soter
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Post by Dawny on Jun 5, 2007 11:58:32 GMT -5
amen
God is one, not two, three or ten.
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Post by Soter King on Jun 5, 2007 14:08:45 GMT -5
God can be three separate persons yet, ONE.
One more thing...the doctrine of the Trinity NEVER uses the word separate when speaking about the Godhead. Such language would necessitate a tri-theistic conclusion. That is not trinitarian doctrine.
Soter King
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Post by jcan071 on Jun 5, 2007 20:12:20 GMT -5
papadon says:Are you an Apostolic or Trinitarian? Knowing where you stand on this helps greatly in enabling others know where to begin.
jcan says:It seems they all have to proclaim "ONE" God, in order to conform with Scripture,but then some twist it to 2, 3 or a multiplicity.
Iwas just trying to get some thoughts on both sides of Apostolic or Trinitarian doctrine and why they believe what they do with scripture backing them up without any personal opinions. I really like post # 5 "All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and NO man knoweth the Son, BUT the Father; NEITHER knoweth any man the Father, SAVE the Son, AND he to whosoever the SON WILL REVEAL HIM."
PS,Papadon im from St.Joseph Mich,but live in Fla now.
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Post by jcan071 on Jun 6, 2007 11:52:59 GMT -5
It seems the word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible anywhere. How then, did it become a major part of modern-day religion?
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Post by soter king on Jun 6, 2007 11:57:18 GMT -5
It seems the word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible anywhere. How then, did it become a major part of modern-day religion?
Because it is the necessary conclusion drawn from the text as is the incarnation. Just because the word does not appear in the text does not mean the concept doesn't. Modalism or oneness doesn't appear in there neither.
Soter King
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Post by ax on Jun 6, 2007 12:12:37 GMT -5
How do I explain the Trinity? How about the same way I would try to explain the 17,000 pound gorilla that is now sitting in my bathroom. Yes, that's right! How does one explain something which doesn't even exist? I realize that this is perhaps a poor analogy, nevertheless it is just about the same. How many Satans are there? One, two, or maybe he is a "triune" Satan! I read in the Bible where he is referred to as a serpent, beast, devil, false prophet, and a host of other titles. Does this mean that he is all of these things at once? Yes! And in exactly the same manner God is referred to by many titles, yet it is ONLY in His "visible" appearance/manifestation in human form is He called the "Son." Seeing that we are told in Genesis 1:27 that God created man "in his own image," and we are NOT a "triune" entity, then why is it that the majority of mankind are yet ignorant concerning the true identity of Christ Jesus, the man? The answer can be found in the words of Matthew 11:27 - "All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and NO man knoweth the Son, BUT the Father; NEITHER knoweth any man the Father, SAVE the Son, AND he to whosoever the SON WILL REVEAL HIM." You see, the "revelation" concerning the identity of the FATHER is only revealed to mankind by the Son (Christ Jesus Himself). Yet, when our Lord responded to the apostle Peter's "revealtion" concerning the identity of the SON, He stated that it was the FATHER who revealed this to him, therein proving that the FATHER (which is to say, "SPIRIT"), and the SON (which is to say, the human being in whom the "SPIRIT" dwelt without measure) were ONE and the SAME! Yet we find it explicitly stated in the words of I Corintians 1:6-7 that "there is not in every man THAT knowledge" (that is to say, a knowledge of the understanding of the Oneness of God). Just a few personal thoughts regarding this important issue which confuses so many that are yet in a state of spiritual darkness regarding the true nature in which God has presented Himself to mankind as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. (Remember, a "ghost" is an invisible spiritual entity, and acknowledging that God is "Spirit," and that He alone is truly "Holy," then when one combines these two we have the true meaning of the phrase "Holy Spirit."
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Post by Music Guy on Jun 6, 2007 12:15:18 GMT -5
JESUS said......"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).
That about sums it up. There is no room for three persons. Only one.
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Post by ax on Jun 6, 2007 12:16:51 GMT -5
"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
--MATTHEW 1:23 "...if ye believe not that I am he,ye shall die in your sins." --JESUS CHRIST, JOHN 8:24
Proofs from the word of God,
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Post by ax on Jun 6, 2007 12:17:18 GMT -5
Jesus Christ is God Incarnate!
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Post by Administrator on Jun 6, 2007 12:23:01 GMT -5
1st Timothy 3:16 says, "...God was manifest in the flesh..."
Colossians 2:9 says, "...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
John 1:1,14 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
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aliyah
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by aliyah on Jun 8, 2007 0:39:28 GMT -5
The truth is always narrow, and nothing is more narrow or narrowminded than the truth. Trinity is false doctrine and unscriptural. Talk your way around it, deceive yourself, but it won't change a thing. Let us listen closely to the Word of God.
If you respect the Bible as the inerrant Word of God and the final authority and make sure that your viewpoint is governed by the Word of God you can expect this to offend and be opposed by professed Bible-believing Christians because you tend to spoil their delusions or contradict their pet theories and sentiments. (consider Jeremiah 8:8,9; Isaiah 5:20,21; 29:13; 55:8,9; Matthew 15:3,7-9; 22:29)
Most Christians settle for tradition and assumption as their preferred forms of knowledge over the Bible and they treat each Bible verse as an isolated statement with no relation to its context or the whole Bible, and therefore inevitably interpret Bible passages in relation to pet theories, man-made traditions, popular trends, or worldly philosophy. (Psalm 33:10,11; 119:89,105,130, 140; Proverbs 2:3-6; 3:5-7; Romans 12:2; II Timothy 2:15)
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Post by Dawny on Jun 8, 2007 0:43:06 GMT -5
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Post by joseph7 on Jun 8, 2007 9:35:54 GMT -5
I was once trinitarian. When it came to explaining the GODHEAD ,I had preachers try to explain it, heard them preach on it just to end up saying "it's a divine mystery NO man can understand". In light of romans 1:20 the exact opposite is true. It says "for the invisible things of GOD since the creation of the world are CLEARLY SEEN AND UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND ....GODHEAD so that men are without excuse". Now it stands to reason, if something is CLEARLY seen AND understood then it cannot be a "divine mystery". In fact nowhere does the scripture say such a thing. Either FATHER and HOLY GHOST are 2 attribute title names and SON refers to the mode GOD manifested HIMSELF in ( see Isiah 7:14, 9:6 , and John 14:7-11) and there is only ONE BEING, or you have the trinity which can only be explained like this: One essence manifesting itself in 3 persons(sounds like a personality disorder) actually making it a qaurtet when you add the "essence",Unless this essence is like the "god field" the pagans worship and draw upon and become one with at death like the Hindus. Or you have 3 co-equal gods which begs to ask who is the mother of the eternal son seeing father always comes before a son.How did the trinity decide it would be the son who came to die for our sins? Seems like the FATHER is always making the decisions and if that sthe case then the other 2 are subject to HIM making them inferior,unless each is lacking in an area and are in perfect agreement as to who does what. Trinity isnt in the Bible but the monotheistic teaching is taught AND spoken in the Bible whereas the trinity doctrine contradicts many scriptures.
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Post by ax on Jun 8, 2007 14:53:43 GMT -5
THE TRUTH ABOUT
ONE GOD
(Biblical and Historical Proof)
by Eddie Jones
From the "dark ages" of Christendom, brought about by the theories and ideas of men, utter confusion has been left in the minds of people concerning the truth about one God. Without the knowledge of the truth, which only comes to an honest heart by divine revelation, many have misunderstand the manifestations of God, and have tried to form three Persons or Deities. Therefore, many are confused by a false, powerless, man-made doctrine called the "Trinity". Do not take mere theories and ideas of men; learn the truth about this important subject.
"Hear, 0 Israel: the Lord our God is ONE LORD." Deut. 6:4. This commandment given to Israel is confirmed in the New Testament (Mark 12:29) and must be obeyed by all Christians today. "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19.
"God is a Spirit..." John 4:24. "No man hath seen God at anytime..." John 1:18. God, the invisible Spirit, has only revealed Himself to man by manifestations. Although there are many manifestations of God, the Scriptures teach that there are basically three offices or positions in which God has manifested Himself. God was manifested as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in emanation.
GOD MANIFESTED AS THE FATHER IN CREATION
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Gen. 1:1. No one else but God performed the miracle of creation. And God said, "Let us make man in our image..." Gen. 1:26. To use the word "us" and try to form other Gods in the creation, clashes not only with the Scriptures, but with common sense. The word God means Supreme Being, the eternal and infinite Spirit, Creator and Sovereign of the universe. There cannot be more than one Supreme Being. By no means was God talking or counseling with other Gods. He was counseling with His own will. Eph. 1:11. In the creation of man, God, the eternal Spirit, foresaw the image or the Son in which He would some day reveal Himself to man. The Son did not exist at the creation. "But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law." Gal. 4:4. The San, who is the image of God, was made thousands of years after the creation. Also God spoke of things which be not as though they were. Ram. 4:17. "So Gad created man in HIS OWN IMAGE," Gen. 1:27. "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that hod not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come. Ram 5:14. God, referring to the Sonship, made Adam in the figure of Him that was to come.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1. The Word cannot be separated from Gad. The term "Word" is derived from the Greek term "logis" which means "thought or plan". God’s thoughts are with Him, but they cannot be separated from Him. "The Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD." "All things were made by Him (Word); and without Him (Word) was not anything made that was made." John 1:3. "...The worlds were framed by the Word of God..." Heb. 11:3. So by His Word God created all things.
"Thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it...I am the LORD; and there is NONE ELSE." Is. 45:18. "...I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF." Is. 44:24. ".. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Is. 44:8. "See now that I, even I, am He, and there is NO GOD WITH ME..." Deut. 32:39. "Have we not all ONE Father? Hath not ONE God created us" Mal. 2:10.
GOD MANIFESTED AS THE SON IN REDEMPTION
A blood sacrifice without sin must be made for the redemption of man. Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Heb. 9:22. So by His plan (Word), God, the invisible Spirit, made Himself a body born of the virgin Mary, and dwelt among us. "And the Word (which was God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1,14. This body was the only begotten Son or image of God. Paul said that the Son is the image (body) of the invisible God. Cal.
1 :13-15.
The Sonship was planned from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8) and prophesied as early as Gen. 3:15. Hundreds of years later Isaiah prophesied," ...Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel...which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." Is. 7:14; Matt. 1:23. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty GOD, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace." Is. 9:6. To Joseph the angel said, "...thou shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sin.. and he called His name JESUS." Matt. 1:21-25. Fosset’s Bible Encyclopedia declares that Jesus means Jehovah-Salvation, or Jehovah is become Saviour.
The name Jesus was not revealed until God made Himself a body. Until then He was called Jehovah. For example:
Jehovah-Jireh - The Lord provides. Gen. 22:14.
Jehovah-Rapha - The Lord that healeth. Exod. 15:26.
Jehovah-Nissi - The Lord is our banner. Exod. 17:15.
Jehavah-Sholom - The Lord our peace. Judges 6:24.
Jehovah-Ra-ah - The Lord is my shepherd. Ps. 23.
Jehovah-Tsidkenu - The Lord our righteousness. Jer. 23:6.
Jehovah-Shammah - The Lord is present. Ezek. 48:35.
When God made Himself a body to redeem man from sin, He then was called JESUS - Jehovah-Salvation.
The angel announced, "For unto you is born this day.. .0 Saviour, which is CHRIST THE LORD." Luke 2:11. Throughout the Old Testament God is also called the Lord. Compare the following:
The Lord God is the Creator. Is. 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3, 10.
The Lord God said, "I am He." Is. 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, "I am He." John 8:24.
The Lord God is the only Saviour. Is. 43:10, 11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.
The Lord God shall reign forever. P5. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke 1 :33.
The Lord God is the King of Israel. Is. 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.
The Lord God is the First and the Lost. Is. 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Rev. 1:8.
The Lord God is Almighty. Gen. 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty. Rev. 1:8.
There is only one Lord. Eph. 4:5. When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, he cried, "Who art thou, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I AM JESUS." Acts 9:5. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the Lord God Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament!
Jesus confirmed that He was not a separate Person, but God manifested in the flesh. Jesus said unto Philip, ".. .He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works...Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME..." John 14:9-11. Jesus simply stated, "I and My Father are ONE (not two)." John 10:30.
Jesus emphasized the importance of His identity as He taught the people in the temple. He said, "...For if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.. .They understood not that He spake to them of the FATHER." John 8:24-27.
When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased."
Matt. 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto
Himself..." II Cor. 5:19.
As Stephen was facing death, he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55. The term "right hand" does not form a part of another Person or Deity. It is symbolic of the power and authority of God. Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matt. 28:18. Paul said that Christ is the power and the wisdom of God. I Cor. 1:24. Note the following symbolical uses of the term "right hand" as correlated to power and authority:
My right hand hath spanned the heavens. Is. 48:13.
The Lord is at the right hand of the poor. Ps. 109:31.
God led Israel by the right hand of Moses. Is. 63:12.
The Lord was at David’s right hand. PS. 16:8.
The question may be asked, "Is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?" If the Godhead is in Jesus, there can only be one Person. The Bible clearly states, "For IN HIM (Christ) DWELLETH all the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER." Col. 2:9, 10. So there is only ONE PERSON in which the Godhead is manifested, because the GODHEAD IS IN JESUS!
In Jesus Christ, two wills or natures are portrayed: a human will and a Divine will. He was man (flesh) and He was God (Spirit). As man He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, "O my Father.. not as I WILL, but as THOU WILT." Matt. 26:39. Also He cried out on the cross, "My God, my God. Why host thou forsaken me?" Matt. 27:46. Certainly these Scriptures do not imply that Jesus Christ is a separate Person or Deity with the Father. Far Deity does not pray to Deity! Futhermore, Deity cannot die! So as man, Jesus Christ prayed in His human nature to His Divine nature. Because, in His human nature, the flesh did not want to die, but He knew the will of the Spirit must be done. Also at Calvary He cried out in His human nature to His Divine nature; and when the Spirit left the body, He fulfilled His human role of death. As man, He was hungry, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matt. 4:2, Matt. 8:24, John 4:6, John 11,35, Luke 2:52, Matt. 26:39, Matt. 27:50.) As God, He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed the sea. He forgave sins, He answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matt. 4,23, Luke 8:35, John 11:43,44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.) Jesus Christ said, "I can of mine own self (human nature) do nothing.. (John 5:30). ..but the FATHER that DWELLETH IN ME (Divine nature), HE doeth the works (John 14:10)." As man, He even expressed His limited knowledge (Mark
13:32); but as God, He knew all things (John 21:17). Compare the following titles which also portray the dual nature of Jesus Christ:
DIVINE
Everlasting Father - Is. 9:6
Chief Shepherd - I Pet. 5:4
King of Kings - Rev. 17,14
Lord God - John 20:28
The Almighty - Rev. 1:8
HUMAN
Son of Man - Luke 9:22
Lamb - I Pet. 1:19
Servant - Phil. 2:7
High Priest - Heb. 2:17
Mediator - I Tim. 2:5
"Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." I Tim. 3:16. How clearly brought out is this glorious truth that Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh. He became Spirit in body to bring redemption to man.
GOD MANIFESTED AS THE HOLY GHOST IN EMANATION
God, the eternal Spirit, is "Omni-present" - everywhere at the same time; therefore, His Substance fills the universe. The only way God can manifest Himself in the hearts of people today is by the process of emanation. To emanate is to issue forth from a source. As the Holy Spirit, God is issuing forth from His Substance to fill the hearts of people today.
The Holy Spirit cannot be separated from the Father, for it is a part of His Substance. That which was conceived in the virgin Mary was of the Holy Ghost. Matt. 1:20. The truth becomes evident that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the Son. To try to separate the Father and the Holy Spirit and form two Persons, would give the Son two Fathers, which is impossible. Definitely the Father and the Holy Spirit would have to be the same Spirit.
There is only ONE SPIRIT. Eph. 4:4. "For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body..." 1 Cor. 12:13. The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is the Holy Ghost. "This spake He (Jesus) of the SPIRIT, which they that believe on Him should receive: far the HOLY GHOST was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified." John 7:39.
The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is the Father. "There is but ONE GOD, the FATHER..." I Cor. 8:6. "GOD (the Father) is a SPIRIT..." John 4:24.
The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is Jesus. There is ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST. I Cor. 8:6. "Now the LORD (Jesus) is that SPIRIT..." II Cor. 3:17.
"There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE." I John 5:7.
By no means did Jesus teach that the Holy Ghost was another Person. Jesus said, "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things..." John 14:26. Again Jesus said, "...if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. John 16:7. Also John said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." John 14:18. Compare John 14:26 with John 16:7; Jesus spoke of the Father and Himself as ONE. Compare John 14:26 with John 14:18. Jesus spoke of the Holy Ghost and Himself as ONE. If the Father and Jesus are one, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one: then the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit are ONE. (Also compare the following Scriptures which show that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ONE: Matt. 10:20, Mark 13:11, Luke 21:15.)
A Trinitarion concept contends that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one in holiness, love, glory, wisdom and eternal power; but, three in Person. No Scripture can be found to support such a concept. Note the following:
His holiness (not their holiness) - Ps. 47:8
His love (not their love) - Ram. 5:8
My glory (not our glory) - Is. 42:8
The only wise God (not the wise three) - I Tim. 1:17
His eternal power (not their eternal power) - Rom. 1:20
The term persons (plural) used in reference to God does violence to the oneness of God. "I am the Lord.. .and my glory will I not give to another." Is. 42:8. The Bible proves that God is ONE IN PERSON. John declared, "...I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was
set in heaven, and ONE sat on the throne." Rev. 4:2.
When the Holy Ghost came on the day of Pentecost, 120 disciples were filled and began to speak with tongues as the SPIRIT gave them utterance. Acts 2:4. Peter preached that the Holy Ghost was the Spirit of God. As he used the prophecy of Joel 2.28, he said, "It shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of MY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH..." Acts 2:17.
Paul used the terms "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ" as synonymous terms in reference to the Holy Spirit. He said, "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of His." Rom. 8:9. (Also see Col. 1 :27, Gal. 4:6.)
There is ONE GOD and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and IN YOU ALL. Eph. 4:6. There is only ONE GOD manifested in the flesh and received in the hearts of believers today.
History also proves that the truth about one God was universally preached by the New Testament Church for many years after Christ, until the development of the "Trinity" doctrine by the Roman Catholic Church.
Encyclopedia International, 1975 Edition, Vol.18, p.226 - The doctrine of the "Trinity" did not form part of the apostles’ preaching, as this is reported in the New Testament.
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 Edition, Vol.13, p.1021 - The first use of the Latin word "trinitas" (trinity) with reference to God, is found in Tertullian’s writings (about 213 A.D.) He was the first to use the term "persons" (plural) in a Trinitarian context.
Encyclopedia Americana, 1957 Edition, Vol.27, p.69 - The word "Trinity" is not in Scripture. The term "persons" (plural) is not applied in Scripture to the Trinity.
World Book Encyclopedia, 1975 Edition, Vol. T, p.363 - Belief in Father, Son and Holy Ghost was first defined by the earliest general council of churches. This was the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.
New International Encyclopedia, Vol.22, p.476 - The Catholic faith is this: We worship one God in Trinity, but there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Ghost. The Glory equal - the Majesty co-eternal. The doctrine is not found in its fully developed form in the Scriptures. Modern theology does not seek to find it in the Old Testament. At the time of the Reformation the Protestant Church took aver the doctrine of the Trinity without serious examination.
Life Magazine, October 30, 1950, Vol.29, No.18, p.51 - The Catholics made this statement concerning their doctrine of the Trinity, to defend the dogma of the assumption of Mary, in an article written by Graham Greene: "Our opponents sometimes claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which is not explicitly stated in Scripture... But the PROTESTANT CHURCHES have themselves accepted such dogmas as THE TRINITY, for which there is NO SUCH PRECISE AUTHORITY in the Gospels"
No record will you find that the New Testament Church ever believed or taught the doctrine of the Trinity. For the Scriptures prove that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are only manifestations (not three Persons) of the ONE GOD; and God is ONE IN PERSON. In Creation God was manifested as the Father (Invisible Spirit - John 1:18, 4:24); in redemption God was manifested as the Son (Spirit in body - Col. 1: 13-15, 2:9); and in emanation God was and is being manifested as the Holy Ghost (Spirit in believers - Acts 2:4, 17, Rom. 8:9, Eph~ 4:6).
Honest hearts, receive the truth There is only ONE Supreme Being: the eternal and infinite Spirit, Creator and Sovereign of the universe, and Saviour of man. God said, "...Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Saviour." Is. 43:10-11, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God and there is NONE ELSE." Is. 45:22, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY." Rev. 1:8." In that day shall there be ONE LORD, and His NAME ONE." Zec. 14:9. And every tongue shall confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. Phil. 2:11.
Typeset and Submitted by: Emon Thompson Order From: Know The Truth Literature P.O. Box 1294 • Minden, La. 71058-1294
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Post by soterking on Jun 11, 2007 6:58:01 GMT -5
Josheph7,
Sorry that you misunderstand trinitarian concepts such as mixing categories of identity and substance.
more later, soter king
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Post by joseph7 on Jun 12, 2007 19:00:26 GMT -5
I didnt misunderstand anything. Lets talk about this "essence".How can a non entity "essence " manifest itself as 3 seperate beings without having intelligence and having knowledge of personalities? Answer: It cannot. So this "Essence would add to the trinity making it a quartet. There is NO way around that. Again the word trinity does not appear in scripture. The Bible clearly teaches that GOD is ONE not 3.It says JESUS is the express image of HIS (GOD'S) person, NOT personS with an S on the end making it plural deities or persons in the GODHEAD. Also coll.2:8-9 makes it clear that ALL the FULLNESS of the GODHEAD is in JESUS CHRIST bodily. If that is so, the father and holy ghost are powerless now. Phillip asked JESUS to shew them the FATHER . JESUS told them the FATHER was DWELLING in HIM and if you seen HIM you seen the FATHER (John 14:7-11).Nowhere does JESUS ever make mention of being a so called "god the son incarnate'.It says "In the beginning the word was with GOD and the word WAS GOD(not god the son, GOD). Later it says "the word became flesh. It also says "when the fullness of time came GOD sent forth HIS son made of a woman,,,," The word was GOD , GOD became flesh.I could go on.
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Post by soterking on Jun 13, 2007 6:57:26 GMT -5
Joseph,
I didnt misunderstand anything. Lets talk about this "essence".How can a non entity "essence " manifest itself as 3 seperate beings without having intelligence and having knowledge of personalities?
What do you mean by "non entity essence." Im not sure that there is such a thing. If a thing has essence then it is an entitiy. In order for a thing to be a thing it would have to have essence. Essence is "what" something is. I am a man...that is my essence or substance. Soter King is "who" I am. So I am man and I am Soter King. Saying that does not add a dimension to my "being" or separate my "being." It explains "what" I am and "who" I am. Same way with the Trinity. God is God as to His essence or substance. He is also Father, Son and Holy Spirit as to His identity. I am not adding another dimension to His "being" nor am I separating His "being." I am speaking to "what" He is and "who" He is.
Answer: It cannot.
Correct. That's why I said that a non entity essence is non existent.
So this "Essence would add to the trinity making it a quartet. There is NO way around that.
Yet you have essence and you have identity........but we don't speak of you as a duet.
God has essence, because He is a thing...a non-spatial being but a being none the less...., and He has identity, three of them, but I don't speak of Him as being a choir.
So my original point stands.
Sorry that you misunderstand trinitarian concepts such as mixing categories of identity and substance.
more later, Soter King
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Post by phillip on Jun 14, 2007 1:32:52 GMT -5
God is not three persons;
God is a Spirit 2CO 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Christ the Son is that Spririt in Person; ISA 9;6
HEB 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
HEB 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
HEB 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
HEB 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
HEB 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
HEB 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
HEB 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
HEB 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Jesus Saves Acts 2;38
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Post by joseph7 on Jun 14, 2007 18:02:56 GMT -5
Ok if the FATHER SON and HOLY GHOST are 3 seperate distinct entities, and they all share an "essence then the essence has an intelligence which it manifests through them all meaning it has a seperate intelligence to do this. This makes a 4TH PERSON-The essence. If it is a "magic field essence as the pagans believe then you have a one GOD corporation made up of 3 gods. Take your pick. Your trinity theories don't add up. Paul said the GODHEAD IS clearly seen and understood. So seeing your "trinity doctrine" is unexplainable, it is not biblical Now what do you call a being with 3 personalities and one mind? A MULTIPLE PERSONALITY DISORDER. Now where does JESUS claim to be a "god the son" incarnate? HE doesnt read John 14:7-11 and you'll see HE PLAINLY said the FATHER dwelled in HIM. So much for the pagan god the son. John 1;1 said the word was with GOD and the word WAS GOD, ...NOT god the son, GOD. Verse 14 says the word (GOD, NOT god the son) became flesh. Now who is the FATHER of JESUS CHRIST? Both Matthew AND LUKE record JESUS FATHER being none other than the HOLY GHOST! Now how many father's does JESUS have? Or did HE emancipate HIMSELF from the HOLY GHOST and adopt another heavenly father? Or it could be that FATHER and HOLY GHOST are merely just 2 of GOD'S many attribute title names.
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Post by soterking on Jun 18, 2007 9:35:10 GMT -5
Joseph,
Ok if the FATHER SON and HOLY GHOST are 3 seperate distinct entities, and they all share an "essence then the essence has an intelligence which it manifests through them all meaning it has a seperate intelligence to do this. You are confusing essence with identity like I said originally. A rock has an essence, i.e. rock essence, but it does not have any intelligence. Essence is "what" something is while identity is "who" something is.
This makes a 4TH PERSON-The essence.
No it doesn't.
If it is a "magic field essence as the pagans believe then you have a one GOD corporation made up of 3 gods. Take your pick. Your trinity theories don't add up. Paul said the GODHEAD IS clearly seen and understood. So seeing your "trinity doctrine" is unexplainable, it is not biblical[/color]
The Trinity is not a corporation of three little gods making up one big God. That is tri-theism. It is clear in it's statement that there is One God in Three Persons. One "what" (God) in three "whos" (persons). When we speak of person we are speaking in metaphysical terms, i.e. a reality that transcends space/time. The word person is not meant to display any physical characteristic or ontological characteristic. The word conveys a reality that speaks to identity only, whereas essence speaks to ontology.
Now what do you call a being with 3 personalities and one mind? A MULTIPLE PERSONALITY DISORDER. Who said God has only one mind? He has three minds (see above the discussion about metaphysical properties, the same applies to the word mind) and if He has three minds then MPD is a misdiagnosis.
more later, soter king
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