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Post by soterking on Jul 26, 2007 9:30:28 GMT -5
seraphim ...and eighth; Do you know what you call someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Messiah??? An unbeliever. Now what would an unbeliever have to say to me about God especially when he doesn't accept God's further revelation of Himself? Now what do you call someone who does not possess God's further revelation??? Uninformed. Now what would someone have to say to me about God when they are uninformed??? Nothing, only what they are informed about. Therefore, a Jew, whether one living now or one living before Christ, is not equipped, exhaustively, either presuppositionally nor according to the time they lived, to exposit God to me or you. soter king
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Post by soterking on Jul 26, 2007 14:08:55 GMT -5
Joseph, The trinity is rooted in paganism,purely a roman catholic creation.Anyone who believes it is deceived and is a child the RCC.You don't know your history especially since even during the fourht century it could not be said that there existed a Roman Catholic Church....so how could the doctrine of the trinity be a RCC creation? Actually it's a logical conclusion based upon the apostolic testimony. The Bible says "whoever has NOT the SPIRIT of CHRIST(THE HOLY SPIRIT-COMFORTER) he is NONE of HIS". The Bible also says "there is ONE SPIRIT that is in you all and through you all. Now if CHRIST is a separate distinct person then how can you have 2 SPIRITS indwelling you,seeing CHRIST refers to JESUS and comforter refers to the HOLY SPIRIT?Not a relevant question because your contention is drawn from a false assumption. You must distinguish between a "person" and a "nature." There are not two spirits dwelling in the believer because spirit refers to nature. There are three persons dwelling in the believer that share that one nature. Don't confuse the two, nature and person...they are not the same thing. JESUS also said "the FATHER dwelled in HIM" So according to the trinity theory, we only have one SPIRIT but 3 persons indwelling us.Yet it says ONE SPIRIT.JESUS told HIS apostles not to worry about what to say when brought before the authorities for an answer.In one record it says "I will give you what to say"another it will be the HOLY SPIRIT speaking" the next Your FATHER will give you what to say".Either all3 are the same being or people are going to be confused as to who to listen to.Now how much time have you spent in worshipping the FATHER SON HOLY GHOST?I hope you haven't spent too much time with one and neglected the other 2. Again you confuse nature with person or identity. Also, if each person is "in" the other, i.e. the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father (perichoresis), then logically and naturally what one does they all do because they share the same nature. No contradiction there at all. And your last sentence is silly. later, soter king
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Post by joseph7 on Jul 26, 2007 22:31:35 GMT -5
JESUS didnt say the nature of the FATHER dwelled in him.HE said the FATHER dwelled in HIM.Get it right.A person has a nature.If all3 have the same nature then they are STILL 3 SEPARATE beings.I can name 10 people who are manic depressive that is THEIR NATURE.i CAN NAME 10 more who are optimistic that is THEIR nature. Just because 3 separate distinct beings have the same nature does not make them all 3 one person. Next JESUS the man was IN THE FATHER because the FATHER is omnipresent , Paul says we have our breath and movement IN HIM, BUT HE does NOT indwell all people.JESUS also has ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD in HIM bodily according to col 2:8-9 so if GOD is 3 persons the other 2 are void of the divine nature and qualities that JESUS possesses. It says ALL the FULLNESS of the GODHEAD(DIVINE NATURE,QUALITIES" is in CHRIST JESUS bodily!
The last sentence may be silly but if you are worshipping a trinity you are worshipping a one god corporation no way around it!You have 3 gods all co equal to one another but not unless the "essence deems it so, and since ALL the FULLNESS of the DEITY is in JESUS ,I guess the essence took it away from the other 2.
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 30, 2007 20:58:17 GMT -5
Ok this is trule gettign tiresome, reply if you must but I might not give much or a reply to this but heh who knows....
First of all, I wasn't yelling.
Second, the phrase in Isaiah calls Jesus the "father of eternities" NOT equating Him with the Father.
Third, distinct not separate. The three persons in the Godhead SHARE the same nature, i.e. deity, therefore making them DISTINCT and NOT separate.
Fourth, I don't believe that you know what you are talking about therefore...you contention is proving false and your argument, that if I can believe the trinity I can believe anything, is fallacious.
Fifth, I have studied the argument concerning Matthew 28:19 and found the argument to be special pleading. Just because someone doesn't want it in the text doesn't mean that it doesn't belong.
Sixth, just because Peter MAY have used a Jesus only formula does not negate the grammar in Matthew 28:19. Maybe you should study the greek of Matthew 28:19.
Seventh, Matthew 28:19 IS a tri-une verse so I have showed you, AT LEAST, one verse which discounts your contention that there isn't any.
soter
First did i say you where yelling if I did then my bad forgive me.
Second why in the world would Isaiah call him the everlasting father. Not 'father of eternities" His name shall be called.... by that alone one could call Jesus the everlasting father, but how can he take the name everlasting father if there is only one father?
third, distinct in it's on defenition means seperate for something to be distint means that it is unique it is not like anything else. If they are distint then they are not like each other. if not like each other then they can not be the same. Even if you were to say that their roles to the church is unique then you would say that the other could not do what one does. i.e. the holy ghost is the only one that can indwell in the human body.
Fourth because you dont believe what I am talking about does not make it a false statment, the same can be said for you. It is best to say you dont understand. It is not if you can beleive the trinity u can believe anything. It is if you beleive the trinity and maintain that it is completly Monothesistic. Why cause every and I mean every trinitarian says that they believe in one God yet they throw out scriptures to indicate Jesus is seperate from the father and the holyghost, not that Jesus is the father and the Holyghost.
Fifth it is not matter of not wanting it in the text nor the issue of belonging. Though the text is it in there it is revealed to those who seek truth what it means. The fact of the matter is it is not the words of Jesus. So to say Jesus said would be in error, because if you know it was later added then you should also know that Jesus didn't say it. So to use a scripture as a bassis ot support the trinity is saying u support a man made doctorine knowing that Jesus never uttered those words.
sixth I have a HEBREW text of the book of Matthew. the text dates back to the 14th century, it does not have the mt 28:19 formula in it. Maybe you should study the origin of the Mt 28:19 for a better understanding.
seventh you completly dont understand do you. I said now one taught that God was triune no one, you use matthew 28:19 to shaw that Jesus was saying God is triune but he did not. at best it said to be baptized in the NAME, Jesus said he came in the mane of the father, what name was that, Mary was told she would bear a son and call him what, Jeus said that HolyGhost would come in what name.. YOu seach the scripures and tell me what is the name of each of those statments..
As I said no one in the bible taught that God was triune no one. Jew beleive that there is only ONE God not a council of three that make up one God but actually ONE God. The fact that Peter did not use the triune formula would suggest that One he was disobedient and began his own thing or Two Jesus DID NOT utter those words. You said u studied the verse did you really. You said you found it to be special pleading. But does that erase the fact that it is widly know by historians and theologians alike that they verse showed up later in the years, way after Christ death. That the true chruct baptized in Jesus name, and that the roman catholic church started the triune formula. That the trinity concept of God started in Rome. Did you really study this or are u just making assumption. You do not have to beleive me I now that If our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost.
Praise him
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 30, 2007 21:04:48 GMT -5
...and eighth; Do you know what you call someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Messiah??? An unbeliever. Now what would an unbeliever have to say to me about God especially when he doesn't accept God's further revelation of Himself?
Now what do you call someone who does not possess God's further revelation??? Uninformed. Now what would someone have to say to me about God when they are uninformed??? Nothing, only what they are informed about.
Therefore, a Jew, whether one living now or one living before Christ, is not equipped, exhaustively, either presuppositionally nor according to the time they lived, to exposit God to me or you.
soter king does that elimate the fact that they are Gods chosen people that he did make a promise to them. Yes Some Jews did not except Christ but does that eliminate the fact that God revealed who he was to them, and continues to deal with them, and the even in the last days will save them. Are they uniformed, about the salvation in Christ yes about the oneness of God certainly not. As I said no jew, (those in the new testement included even Jesus) TAUGHT that God was TRIUNE! that is a fact face it. You can only have one everlasting Father, there can only be one mighty God. There is only one that can have ALL POWER. Jesus has all of those titles and more. Yes Jesus is the father, and he is the HolyGhost. there is not need to explain many have done a wonderful job in this post already go back and read them. Praise Him
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 1, 2007 16:20:14 GMT -5
JESUS never said GOD was triune.When asked the greatest commandment HE started out by saying"Hear o Israel, the LORD our GOD the LORD is ONE!"Deuteronomy 6:4 not"hear o israel the lords our gods are a one god corporation.The trinity doctrine came STRAIGHT from your mother the roman catholic church and all her little harlot children embrace her false pagan trinity doctrine.Try again fellah try again. Now if GOD the FATHER and GOD the HOLY GHOST are 2 separate distinct beings, then the FATHER is NOT the FATHER of JESUS CHRIST according to Matthew and Luke who record MARY being with CHILD of the HOLY GHOST.Either FATHER and HOLY GHOST are attribute title names or JESUS has 3 fathers.The FATHER the HOLY GHOST and Joseph.The gays will love you for your view on this one.
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Post by purly on Aug 1, 2007 17:45:58 GMT -5
Here's an old document I thought some would enjoy perusing. The Sandy Foundation Shaken by William Penn The trinity of distinct and separate Persons, in the Unity of Essence, refuted from Scripture. "And he said, Lord God, there is no god like unto thee, to whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal, saith the Holy One?1-I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me. Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. I will also praise thee, O my God; unto thee will I sing-O Holy One of Israel, Jehovah shall be One-and his name One."2 Which, with a cloud of other testimonies that might be urged, evidently demonstrate, that in the days of the first covenant, and prophets, but One was the Holy God, and God but that Holy One.-Again, "And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but One, and that is God. And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee (father) the Only true God. Seeing it is One God that shall justify. There be gods many,-but unto us there is but One God, the Father, of whom are all things. One God and Father, who is above all. For there is One God. To the Only-wise God be glory now and ever."3 From all which I shall lay down this one assertion, that the testimonies of scripture, both under the law, and since the gospel dispensation, declare One to be God, and God to be One, on which I shall raise this argument: If God, as the scriptures testify, hath never been declared or believed, but as the Holy One; then will it follow, that God is not an Holy Three, nor doth subsist in Three distinct and separate Holy Ones: but the before-cited scriptures undeniably prove that One is God, and God only is that Holy One; therefore he cannot be divided into, or subsist in an Holy Three, or three distinct and separate Holy Ones.-Neither can this receive the least prejudice from that frequent but impertinent distinction, that He is One in substance, but Three in persons or subsistences; since God was not declared or believed incompletely, or without his subsistence; nor did He require homage from his creatures as an incomplete or abstracted Being, but as God the Holy One, for so He should be manifested and worshipped without that which was absolutely necessary to himself: So that either the testimonies of the aforementioned scriptures are to be believed concerning God, that he is entirely and completely, not abstractly and distinctly, the Holy One; or else their authority to be denied by these Trinitarians: and on the contrary, if they pretend to credit those holy testimonies, they must necessarily conclude their kind of trinity a fiction. Refuted From Right Reason 1. If there be three distinct and separate persons, then three distinct and separate substances, because every person is inseparable from its own substance; and as there is no person that is not a substance in common acceptation among men, so do the scriptures plentifully agree herein; and since the Father is God, the son is God, and the spirit is God, (which their opinion necessitates them to confess) then unless the Father, son, and spirit, are three distinct nothings, they must be three distinct substances, and consequently three distinct gods. 2. It is farther proved, if it be considered, that either the divine persons are finite or infinite. If the first, then something finite is inseparable to the infinite substance, whereby something finite is in God; if the last, then three distinct infinites, three omnipotents, three eternals, and so three gods. 3. If each person be God, and that God subsists in three persons, then in each person are three persons or gods, and from three they will increase to nine, and so ad infinitum. 4. But if they shall deny the three persons or subsistences to be infinite, (for so there would unavoidably be three gods) it will follow that they must be finite, and so the absurdity is not abated from what it was; for that of one substance having three subsistences is not greater than that an infinite being should have three finite modes of subsisting. But though that mode which is finite cannot answer to a substance that is infinite; yet to try if we can make their principle to consist, let us conceive that three persons, which may be finite separately, make up an infinite conjunctly; however this will follow, that they are no more incommunicable or separate, nor properly subsistences, but a subsistence; for the infinite substance cannot find a bottom or subsistence in any one or two, therefore, jointly. And here I am also willing to overlook finiteness in the Father, Son, and Spirit, which this doctrine must suppose. 5. Again, if these three distinct persons are one, with some one thing, as they say they are with the God-head, then are not they incommunicable among themselves; but so much the contrary, as to be one in the place of another: for if that the only God is the Father, and Christ be that only God, then is Christ the Father. So if that one God be the son, and the spirit that one God, then is the spirit the son, and so round. Nor is it possible to stop, or that it should be otherwise, since if the divine nature be inseparable from the three persons, or communicated to each, and each person have the whole divine nature, then is the son in the Father, and the spirit in the son, unless that the Godhead be as incommunicable to the persons, as they are reported to be amongst themselves; or that the three persons have distinctly allotted them such a proportion of the divine nature, as is not communicable to each other: which is alike absurd. Much more might be said to manifest the gross contradiction of this Trinitarian doctrine, as vulgarly received; but I must be brief. Information and Caution Before I shall conclude this head, it is requisite I should inform thee, reader, concerning its original. Thou mayst assure thyself, it is not from the Scriptures, nor reason, since so expressly repugnant; although all broachers of their own inventions strongly endeavour to reconcile them with that holy record. Know then, my friend, it was born above three hundred years after the ancient gospel was declared; and that through the nice distinctions and too daring curiosity of the Bishop of Alexandria, who being as hotly opposed by Arius, their zeal so reciprocally blew the fire of contention, animosity, and persecution, till at last they sacrificed each other to their mutual revenge. Thus it was conceived in ignorance, brought forth and maintained by cruelty; for though he that was strongest imposed his opinion, persecuting the contrary, yet the scale turning on the Trinitarian side, it has there continued through all the Romish generations; and notwithstanding it hath obtained the name of Athanasian from Athanasius, (a stiff man, witness his carriage towards Constantine the emperor) because supposed to have been most concerned in the framing that creed in which this doctrine is asserted; yet have I never seen one copy void of a suspicion, rather to have been the results of Popish school-men; which I could render more perspicuous, did not brevity necessitate me to an omission. Be therefore cautioned, reader, not to embrace the determination of prejudiced councils for evangelical doctrine; which the Scriptures bear no certain testimony to, neither was believed by the primitive saints, or thus stated by and I have read of in the first, second, or third centuries; particularly Ireneus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen, with many others who appear wholly foreign to the matter in controversy. But seeing that private spirits, and those none of the most ingenious, have been the parents and guardians of this so generally received doctrine; let the time past suffice, and be admonished to apply thy mind unto that light and grace which brings salvation; that by obedience thereunto, those mists tradition hath cast before thy eyes may be expelled, and thou receive a certain knowledge of that God, whom to know is life eternal, not to be divided, but One pure, entire and eternal Being; who in the fulness of time sent forth his Son, as the true light which enlighteneth every man; that whosoever followed him (the light) might be translated from the dark notions and vain conversations of men to this holy light, in which only sound judgment and eternal life are obtainable: who so many hundred years since, in person, testified the virtue of it, and has communicated unto all such a proportion as may enable them to follow his example. Footnotes (?) 11Kings viii.23. Isa. xi.25. 2Isa. xlv. 5, 6, xlviii.17. Psa. lxxi.22. Zac.xiv.9. 3Matt.xix.17. John xvii.3. Rom. iii.30. 1 Cor. viii.5, 6. Eph. iv.6. 1 Tim.ii.5. Jude ver.25. URL: mail.prairienet.org/pipermail/higher-fire/attachments/20050304/5bc4382f/attachment.htm--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 1, 2007 21:07:41 GMT -5
Good post there purly.
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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 1, 2007 22:44:32 GMT -5
It is a hard earned discussion and truly the word of God is only revealed to those who seek and truly hunger and thirst for righteousness. those who really want to know Gods word. Anyone and I mean anyone can read Mat 28:19 and assume that God is triune, can read Jn 1:1-14 and say Christ is the second person of the godhead. It is a surface reader, nothing about it is hidden one must search the scriptures and realize that when God says he created the heavens and earth ALONE, when he uses words like ALONE, I, NO ONE LIKE ME, MY GLORY WIll I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER, THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME, NEITHER WILL THERE BE AFTER ME. all of that points to there is no distictions of persons, Christ had the mind of God and his human side always submitted to the will of God. there was no distictions of person Before God would say Jump Jesus was already in the air that is how much of the same mind they had.
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, is the EVERLASTING FATHER there can only be one alpha and omega, only one everlasting father....
Praise Him
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Post by soterking on Aug 2, 2007 12:00:42 GMT -5
Joseph,
JESUS didnt say the nature of the FATHER dwelled in him.HE said the FATHER dwelled in HIM.
Look at that statement. Do you see the inconsistency??
Just a logical point here. If the Father dwells in Jesus...then "what" the Father "is" dwells in Jesus or else what does it mean for the Father to dwell in Jesus??
Even an OP will admit that "what" the Father is (GOD) dwells in Jesus or else they have no case to make when they equate the identity of the Father with GOD only.
You're not making sense.
more later, Soter King
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 2, 2007 20:32:26 GMT -5
Yes I am.If the FATHER dwelled in JESUS ,then JESUS was the FATHER incarnate seeing HE told Phillip "if you have seen ME you have seen the FATHER"NOWHERE , does JESUS ever claim to be your pagan god the son incarnate.Isaiah 9:6 and John 14:7-11 blows your pagan god the son incarnate doctrine to smithereenies! Now who was the FATHER of JESUS,you STILL have not answered that one.It cannot be the FATHER seeing both matthew and luke said mary was found with child of the HOLY GHOST. Again,I submit to you that FATHER and HOLY GHOST are NOT separate distinct persons but ATTRIBUTE TITLE NAMES of ONE BEING,not 2 not 3,but ONE.
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 2, 2007 20:33:13 GMT -5
Also, YOU were the one who was trying to say nature not person, when I pinted out the FATHER dwelled in JESUS.
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Post by soterking on Aug 8, 2007 9:29:33 GMT -5
Joseph,
A person has a nature.If all3 have the same nature then they are STILL 3 SEPARATE beings.
They do have the same nature...humanity. However because they are humanity they are necessarily three separate beings. Such is not the case with a being that is transcendant.
It seems that you have an understanding of the word "being". So to further the conversation along, and to guard against anymore confusion between you and me I will substitute the word "being" for "nature" since, in the context which I am using the word "nature", they mean the same thing.
I can name 10 people who are manic depressive that is THEIR NATURE.i CAN NAME 10 more who are optimistic that is THEIR nature. Just because 3 separate distinct beings have the same nature does not make them all 3 one person.
Again since you are confusing my use of the word "nature" and it's philosophical meaning with an purely dispositional meaning I will instead use the word "being".
Next JESUS the man was IN THE FATHER because the FATHER is omnipresent ,
Then why was the Father in Jesus??? For the same reason???
The only way that such an intimate relationship could exist as described in John 14 is that they both have to possess the necessary attributes of deity.
more later, soter king
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Post by cammyj on Aug 8, 2007 11:46:29 GMT -5
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
no other means NO OTHER....amen
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Post by purly on Aug 8, 2007 11:49:08 GMT -5
It is certain that there is only a single God. That is why those who say that there are three divine persons do not understand or must not understand the word 'person' in the same way as it is generally understood, otherwise there would be three Gods.
it must be agreed that it is only eternal and omnipotent God who deserves ALL of the glory, because God said He would not give His glory to another.
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 8, 2007 12:58:20 GMT -5
And the semantical arguments continue... person, nature, identity; when will we all learn. There is only One God who has at sundry times and places revealed Himself as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit... all three One.
The doctrine of Oneness is true... The Doctrine of the Trinity doesn't deny the Oneness of God; It acknowledges God is One. The major differences between the two are semantical... The use of terms that are easily confused: person, identity, nature, essence, and manifestation, each can be interchangeable, depending on there use.
Where then is the argument? It lies in the pride of men. Men, who look to be superior to others. Men who ask, who shall sit at the right hand of God, will it be I? God, judges the heart of man; the thoughts and intents of the heart... were no man may enter. Here the believer is equal in the eyes of God, being judged in Christ Jesus.
Therefore, cease these doubtfully disputations and find areas of agreement... Speak the truth plainly; then, let God deal with those who oppose themselves. Remember that meekness and patients are marks of maturity in Christ. It is the Spirit of God that brings us all to revelation Knowledge... not our might, nor our prowess... or, our strengths of debate; it is by His Spirit that we receive revelation of the Truth. Let the Spirit of God work in those who are called... that they may enter into all truth, as God wills.
Keep the faith and with patients wait upon the Lord for He shall work a work in His time and season, that if told we could not conceive... Amen.
Prophet.
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Post by soterking on Aug 8, 2007 14:10:18 GMT -5
I'll try to reply to each post categorically and in order,
Joseph,
Paul says we have our breath and movement IN HIM, BUT HE does NOT indwell all people.
That means our existence, our very being, is owed to His ability to create and maintain what He creates. Not an issue.
JESUS also has ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD in HIM bodily according to col 2:8-9 so if GOD is 3 persons the other 2 are void of the divine nature and qualities that JESUS possesses. It says ALL the FULLNESS of the GODHEAD(DIVINE NATURE,QUALITIES" is in CHRIST JESUS bodily!
Why would that be??? All the fulness of "deity" is in Jesus...meaning Jesus is fully God. No problem for a trinitarian.
The last sentence may be silly but if you are worshipping a trinity you are worshipping a one god corporation no way around it!You have 3 gods all co equal to one another but not unless the "essence deems it so, and since ALL the FULLNESS of the DEITY is in JESUS ,I guess the essence took it away from the other 2.
Your last phrase holds more truth than you allow it...I guess... all of your posts are nothing but you guessing. That's your methodology...guesswork.
The sentence in question is silly because when you pray to One you are praying to all three because they each share the same "being."
And by the way, how can a one god corporation be 3 gods??? Wouldn't that be a 3 god corporation??? Such is a contradiction and displays your problem while shedding light on the reason why you have such difficulty understanding what I am saying. You can't even collate your argument in a cohesive manner.
Essence is just what something is...person is who something is.
Try again, more later, soter king
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 8, 2007 17:23:31 GMT -5
IF ALL the FULLNESS of the DEITY is in JESUS alone, then the other 2 have NO deity left.Thats a problem for trinitarians. Sorry.It says the SPIRIT of the FATHER who dwells in you or the HOY SPIRIT or the SPIRIT of CHRIST.Now if all 3 are separate and distinct then they each have their own spirit they just share your "unexplainable essence" So either believers have 3 spirits indwelling them or the SPIRIT that is in them is called FATHER ,SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HOLY GHOST and is all the SAME PERSON. 'Again you confuse nature with person or identity. "
You are now saying the FATHER is an essence?This IS what you are saying?If the FATHER is an "essence then he is not a person".JESUS said the FATHER dwelled in HIM, not an essence or the "essence of the FATHER".HE PLAINLY said the FATHER, not a pagan god the son. Your theology fell flat on its face again sorry.
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 8, 2007 18:27:03 GMT -5
I'll try this one more time:
If I tell you of earthly things and you cannot comprehend... How shall I tell you of spiritual things. When discussing the Godhead one is discussing spiritual things... they are not bound to the natural laws of physics.
Therefore, those who seek explanations as to how three can be one; using the logic of this world, and it's physical laws, will never be satisfied... As the things of God are not comprehended by the things IN THE WORLD.
Essence... is defined by Webster as: The sum of a thing's nature, the sum of the intrinsic properties without which a thing would cease to be what it is, and which are not effected by accident or modification. IE it is Vanilla in essence, in fundamental respects the same..
Here we see that one can be the essence of something, without being that thing... in fundamental respects, the same. Ice is the essence of water... in fact, it is water in another form. The Son of God is the essence of God; in fact, He is God in another form, as is the Fater and the Holy Spirit. They are each fundamentaly One.
Person... Common use, according to Webster: a man, woman or child, regarded as having a distinct individuality. However, Webster specifically defines a person of the Trinity as: one of the modes of being of the Trinitarian God. Modes of being.
Mode... One of Webster's definitions for mode is: A form or aspect of an underlying substance... ie., essence.
Using Webster's definitions, one can conclude that a Trinitarian believes that the Godhead is made up of three persons, each containing the essence of God... The underlying substance is the same. Or, three manifestations of the One God...
Some here have asked, how can a one god corporation be 3 gods???
Answer: The same way water manifests itself in three separate physical forms; yet, remain as water? Each physical form of water has it's own properties (body) and characteristics (personality). Yet, they are all exactly the same, in essence... H20. This analogy demonstrates how One God, can be embodied in 3 different forms, yet remain as One.
And no it would not be a 3 God corporation... it would be a One God corporation with three members in the... Godhead/board.
Those who poke fun at another's faith, need to first understand what that faith claims... There is only One God, One faith and One Baptism in Christ. The Trinitarian believes there is only One God. Let us seek those things which soever are pure, of good report... too, think no evil of another's faith in Jesus Christ; too, lift up those who are of low degree, that they may be filled from on high.
We know that the Body of Christ has many members... Can the eye say to the foot I need you not, or the hand to the mouth depart... Nay, for the Body needs all its members to function properly.
The House of God is Like unto a rich man's house, it has many furnishings and vessels; some to honor and some to dishonor, some of gold and silver, some of wood and stubble... But, they are all necessary and part of His House.
Who then can say to the less comely members of their body depart or too the less honorable in the house of God, ye are not necessary... leave? The Household of God and the Body of Christ need all its members to be fully furnished and rightly framed... too, function perfectly.
Therefore, be careful how ye judge another mans meat or drink. For they are but shadows of things to come... We see dimly now, each knowing in part the mysteries of God... However, we all shall see clearly, when we come face to face with Christ.
Until then, let the strong, suffer the weak in faith... praying for those who oppose themselves; that God may give them grace and revelation in the deep things of the Kingdom. Offend no man, especially those of the faith... Walk in love preferring your brother over your self... that ye may be perfect in love as God is perfect.
For Jesus Christ the Son of God did lay down His life, so we may all become One in Him... Even as He is One with His Father; we are all One in Them. This is the mystery hidden in God; that we all are One in Him... One God , One Faith, One Baptism and Lord of us all, Jesus Christ. Amen.
Your Brother in Christ;
Prophet.
P/S Be not angry, nor swift to judge... Be patient, that ye may be perfect and entire, lacking no good thing... Wait upon the Lord and see a work if it be told, would not be understood. We are all in His Hands, trust in God, He is the author and finisher of our faith.
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 9, 2007 0:21:08 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit is the binding essence between the Father and the Son... In fact, the Holy Spirit, binds us all together as one. Certainly we all know and believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in every beleiver... Are there billions of Holy Spirits or One?
Certainly, all the fullness of the deity exist in Jesus... just as the Holy Spirit exist in billions of believers simultaneously, at the same moment. Further, each member of the Godhead... share their identity as One God. They each have One Spirit... The Holy Spirit. And, just as the Holy Spirit resides in you he also resides in Billions more at the same moment... What matter then is it for the Holy Spirit to reside in the Father and the Son at that same moment.
In fact, this is the mystery of Christ; that we are all One in Him... Yet, we have independent bodies and personalities. We are all One with the Father and the Holy Spirit, in Christ Jesus; all at the same moment in time.
How... read the gospel of John 17:21," That they (all believers) may be one; as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
If the Holy Spirit is able to be in billions of believers at the same time and space... Why is it so difficult to understand how the Father and the Son may both exist at the same time in space, as one?
All things are possible with God only believe. His ways our not our ways... His thoughts are not our thoughts; for, His ways are higher and His thoughts unfathomable by man.
Why do you kick against the pricks... for the Holy Spirit surly has spoken the Truth in your heart... be not stubborn; let, not pride rob you of your Brothers in Christ. Rejoice, that God has called many into His House... that we may all be son's and daughters of the King... our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
Prophet.
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Post by onenessbeliever on Aug 9, 2007 16:53:30 GMT -5
THE DEFINITION OF ONENESS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Excerpt by permission from author from the book, Oneness and Trinity A.D. 100-300, by David K. Bernard, Word Aflame Press [ISBN- 0-932581-81-1], 1991). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The doctrine of Oneness can be stated in two affirmations:
God is absolutely one with no distinction of persons (Deut. 6:4; Gal. 3:20).
Jesus Christ is all the fullness of the Godhead incarnate (John 20:28; Colossians 2:9).
"All the names and titles of the Deity, such as God, Jehovah, Lord, Father, Word, and Holy Spirit, refer to one and the same being. These various names and titles simply denote manifestations, roles, relationships to humanity, modes of activity, or aspects of God's self-revelation.
"All these designations of the Deity apply to Jesus, and all aspects of the divine personality are manifested in Him. Jesus is God, or Jehovah, incarnate (Isa. 9:6; 40:9: John 8:58; 20:28; II Cor. 5:19; Col. 2:9; I Timothy 3:16; Titus 2:13).
"Jesus is the Father incarnate (Isaiah 9:6; 63:16; John 10:30; 14:9-11; Rev. 21:6-7). The Holy Spirit is the Spirit that was incarnated in Jesus and is Jesus in Spirit form (John 14:16-18; Romans 8:9-11; Philippians 1:19; Col. 1:27).
"The Oneness doctrine recognizes that the Bible reveals God as the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Spirit. The One God is the Father of all creation, Father of the only begotten Son, and Father of born- again believers. (See Deut. 32:6; Malachi 2:10; Galatians 4:6; Hebrews 1:5; 12:9).
"The title of Son refers to God's incarnation. The man Christ was literally conceived by the Spirit of God and was therefore the Son of God (Matthew 1:18-20; Luke 1:35). The title of Son sometimes focuses solely on the humanity of Christ, as in 'the death of His Son' (Romans 5:10). Sometimes it encompasses both His deity and humanity, as in 'Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven' (Matthew 26:64). It is never used apart from God's incarnation, however; it never refers to deity alone.
"The terms 'God the Son' and 'eternal Son' are nonbiblical; the Bible instead speaks of the 'Son of God' and the 'only begotten Son'. The Son is not eternally begotten by some incomprehensible, ongoing process; rather, the Son was begotten by the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Son had a beginning, namely, at the incarnation (Luke 1:35; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 1:5-6).
"There is a real distinction between God and Son - not a distinction of two divine persons, but a distinction between the eternal Spirit of God and the authentic human being in whom God was fully incarnate. While Jesus was both God and man at the same time, sometimes He spoke or acted from the human viewpoint and sometimes from the divine viewpoint. As Father, He sometimes spoke from His divine self-awareness; as Son, he sometimes spoke from His human self-awareness. As a man, He prayed to, related to, and submitted to God as all humans should do. At the same time, God dwelt in and revealed Himself in that man with His undiminished character, nature, power and authority.
"In John 1, the Word is God's self-revelation, self-_expression, or self-disclosure. Before the Incarnation, the Word was the thought, plan, reason, or mind of God. In the beginning, the Word was with God, not as a distinct Person but as God Himself -- pertaining to God as much as a man and his word. 'The Word was God Himself' (John 1:1, Amplified Bible). In the fullness of time God put flesh on the Word; He revealed Himself in flesh. In the person of Jesus Christ, 'the Word was made flesh' (John 1:14). 'God was manifest in the flesh' (I Timothy 3:16). The eternal Word was revealed in the begotten Son.
"The title of Holy Spirit refers to God in spiritual essence and activity. It describes the fundamental character of God's nature, for holiness forms the basis of His moral attributes while spirituality forms the basis of His nonmoral attributes. The Title is particularly used of works that God can do because He is a Spirit, such as anointing, regenerating, indwelling, and sanctifying humanity. (See Genesis 1:1-2; Acts 1:5-8).
"The three roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are necessary to God's plan of redemption for fallen humanity. In order to save us, God provided a sinless Man who could die in our place - the Son. In begetting the Son and in relating to humanity, God is the Father. And in working in our lives to empower and transform us, God is the Holy Spirit.
"In sum, the titles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit describe God's multiple roles and works, but they do not reflect an essential threeness in God's nature. FATHER refers to God in family relationship to humanity; SON refers to God in flesh; and SPIRIT refers to God in activity. For example, one man can have three significant relationships or functions -such as administrator, teacher, and counsellor - and yet be one person in every sense. God is not defined by or limited to an essential threeness.
"A corollary of the Oneness doctrine is that the name of Jesus, which means Jehovah-Saviour, is the supreme name by which God has revealed Himself to humanity and the redemptive name in the New Testament. (See Matthew 1:21; Luke 24:47; Acts 4:12; 10:43; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 3:17.) Consequently, the apostles always baptized by invoking the name of Jesus, and the church should do the same today. (See Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:3-5; 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; I Corinthians 1:13; 6:11). Since Jesus is all the fullness of God incarnate, the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as described by Matthew 28:19 is Jesus. (See Matthew 1:21; Luke 24:47; John 5:43; 14:26).'
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 9, 2007 17:17:04 GMT -5
Ok lets USE HEAVENLY examples.John was in HEAVEN and saw ONE GOD SITTING on one throne.I guess the other 2 were out top lunch? The lamb came forth from the midst of THE THRONE.Not from a second throne.SO much for the trinity theory. Paul said the GODHEAD is CLEARLY seen and understood,The FACT no one can explain the trinity without ending up with 3 subordinates to an essence or 3 gods making up a one god corporation tells me it is roman catholic creation. I have heard this over and over"OH!The trinity is a divine mystery NO man can understand!Why if a man could understand it then he would be equal to GOD!" Yet again in Romans 1:20 Paul says the GODHEAD is CLEARLY seen and understood.The son had a beginning,and HE died and was resurrected. Who is the FATHER of JESUS?Not "god the father" of the trinity theory who is also known as the first person.How can he possibly be first if they are co all co equal and co eternal?Because a FATHER ALWAYS comes before a son which means they cannot be co-eternal. Matthew AND Luke BOTH record the HOLY GHOST as being the FATHER of JESUS. GOD is not the author of confusion.If we are made in HIS image, then we should all be triplet clones.We arent.I am body soul and spirit BUT, my body is not a separate entity neither is my soul or spirit.Now if I am created in the image of GOD then I want my 2 other clones!It is time for them to help with earning a living. I am a son, a brother,a father,uncle, artist,musician, mechanic, so according to trinitarian doctrines I am more persons than GOD.Yet still one. GOD is creator of ALL things, HE is the FATHER of all things creator. GOD is a SPIRIT and GOD is HOLY=HOLY SPIRIT. The word was with GOD and the word WAS GOD and the word became flesh. The flesh was the son of GOD. JESUS is GOD in the flesh,nowhere does it say "god the son".JESUS said "If you have seen ME you have seen who?" 1.The FATHER 2.god the son 3.GOD the HOLY GHOST The correct answer is 1.The FATHER,namely GOD WHO created all things,which this statement from JESUS blows the "god the son"theory out of the water.
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 10, 2007 0:24:41 GMT -5
We must not take scripture out of context nor ignore the full council of God, every jot and tittle of His Word. The Trinity believes in One God... who has one throne. They believe there are other thrones... but of lessor degree, just as the kings of the earth all have thrones and crowns... so will we all. The scripture declares that Jesus sits at the right hand of God... not on the Fathers Throne(read Ro 8:34) Therefore, John would see only one throne.
As for expression, God the Son... What is the materiel difference between saying the Son of God or God the Son? Knowing, that Jesus Christ said, if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father; for we are one. Answer, there is no materiel difference... Only those with a stubborn and unteachable spirit would argue that point.
Next, the Son of God is a co-equal because He is the same as the Father. They are One, making them coequals... simple enough. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is a co-equal with the Father and the Son, as they all three are One. (See John 17:21-22)
You asked if I am created in the image of God where are my two clones to help you earn a living... If I tell you of earthly things and you can not comprehend, how can I tell you of spiritual things. First, we are made in His image and likness... We are spirits, that dwell in a body, and have a soul... We are a tri-un being... three in one. However, in this dimension, this world, we appear as one, to the natural eye. Just, as God appears as one.
However, when our bodies die, our spirit go to heaven... There we wait for the resurrection of our body. Simple enough. We are like God... Being created from the beginning in His image and likeness... having a body, soul and spirit.
As for who came first the Father or the Son? Again, you are attempting to construct a logical argument based on earthly laws... believing that the son must come, after the father. However, Jesus Christ existed with the Father from the beginning... They co-existed(John 1:1). Our spirit was formed in God, from the beginning... Scripture says, He knew us before the foundations of this world. We had our existence in God before our earthly father ever existed. We have our life in God, from the begining... See my post entitled Life Begins in the Beginning. The real I... the spirit Iam, existed together with my earthly fathers spirit, before I was every concieved... Therefore, the father did not come before the son... the co-existed in the Spirit... from the beginning. You said, nowhere in the Bible... (English rendering of scripture) are the words God the Son... This is True. However, this is just another exercise in semantics... In the original Greek the text can mean either... God the Son or Son of God; due to the grammatical construction in Greek. Additionally, the scripture declare that we are all gods; "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are the children of the most High." (Ps 82:6/John 10:34) If we are gods certainly Jesus can be referred to as God the Son. Finally, if one believes Jesus is God, He certainly can be called God the Son. You can't have it both ways... God is One.
The number of names or titles given to a person, doesn't make that person, more than one... Queen Elizabeth of England has over 100 names and titles... but she is just one woman. Therefore, when the Trinity refers to God the Son... they are not identifying a separate God, who is separate from God the Father... They believe if you have seen the Son you have also seen the Father, for they are One.
This entire debate is futile... No matter how many scriptures and examples used to describe the Godhead, some will simply deny that the doctrine of Oneness and the Trinity are mutually inclusive... both believing in the fundamental principal that there is only One God. Both sides will hold stubbornly to their own definition of the Godhead; using man's limited language to argue semantical differences in their doctrine of the Godhead.
What the church should focus on is Jesus Christ and His gospel, to the lost... Which both preach and believe. Let God judge the thoughts and intents of the heart... He alone knows the heart of man.
Therefore, be courteous one to another and in love lift up your brother... praying that God may reveal the fullness of His Word in him... That we may all grow up, unto the full measure and stature of our Lord Jesus Christ... that the world may see Jesus high and lifted up by our love for one another. Amen.
Prophet.
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 10, 2007 16:40:11 GMT -5
JESUS HIMSELF said HE sat on HIS FATHER'S throne Revelation 3:21. "RIGHT hand" means position of power and authority not a geological location, otherwise John would have saw 3 thrones not just ONE. The word "gods" means "rulers".Not GOD as GOD is GOD. I used to BE trinity.They believe ONE unexplainable "essence" manifested in 3 subordinates.3 separate persons making up ONE GOD, or ONE GOD manifesting HIMSELF in 3 persons and making a 4th when you take the "essence" aside, OR you have 3 gods who share a deity power making up a one god corporation.This is the ONLY conclusions the trinity theology can lead to. I was told I didnt understand "Heavenly things".I understand the GODHEAD, it is when the GODHEAD is explained in "earthly things(trinity doctrine) " is when we get in trouble. I was PLAINLY told in the churches I came out of, that GOD was made up of 3 persons ALL co equal, co eternal, etc.The phrases "GOD the son and GOD the HOLY GHOST' do not appear in scripture.JESUS referred to HIMSELF as "the son of GOD and the son of man". The trinitarians I know believe when you get to heaven you will see 3 separate persons on 3 separate thrones and all are GOD.Again, you have either 3 god puppets under the power of the "god essence" OR you have 3 clone gods that make up a one god corporation. I have met some people who claim to be trinitarians who are actually oness but do not know how to explain it adequately.These people have a revelation BUT because of their teaching and fear to let go of roman catholicism, they are afraid to let go of the word "trinity".
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 10, 2007 16:42:07 GMT -5
The trinity doctrine first started in the 2nd centurty by tertullian and was accepted by the RCC at the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and the form we have it in now was accepted and taught by Rome in 425 A.D.
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 10, 2007 23:42:33 GMT -5
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Phillip...
It is regretful that your experience with the doctrine of the Trinity was so terrible, causing you such grief and visible pain. Certainly, you understand that God has all things in control... That He knows His sheep and they Him. Take a deep breath and get some perspective on your arguments.
The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the oldest of the established doctrines... dating to the second century. The majority of the Church adhere to this doctrine even though they don't all agree monolithically to all its tenants. However, they all believe there is only One God...
Obviously you believe they don't based on personal experience... This is no surprise as not all Trinitarians agree either. However, the doctrinal statement of the Trinity clearly states there is only one God; who has manifested Himself unto man at various times in sundry places in the form of the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit.
You take issue to calling Jesus... God the Son. Yet, we know Him as the Son of God; We also know He is God, come in the Flesh... This knowledge clearly makes Him... God. Then to extrapolate the Son of God as God the Son, doesn't violate His essence... The meaning is the same.
The idea that some cannot see how The Son and The Father and The Holy Spirit co-exist as One... flies in the face of their acceptance that the Holy Spirit exists in Billions of Christians; all at the same time, yet there is only one Holy Spirit. It ignores Christ's prayer that we all be One as He and His Father are One... Did Jesus get His prayer answered? Yet, in this physical realm we all have individual bodies not One. The Godhead exist as One, yet it is made up of The Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit. God is not limited by our natural reasoning... logic, or too the laws of physics.
I believe the basis for your arguments are primarily centered in pride and anger, due to some perceived earlier injury. It is anchored in an inability to accept the full counsel of the Word of God, or to understand another's faith in God as equal to your own. Especially, when that faith is demonstrated to be centered in Jesus Christ as God.
I will no longer engage you in discussion on this matter... As the debate has clearly engendered doubtful disputations... and serves no further purpose. We will simply have to agree to disagree.
Many God richly bless and keep you and may He give you peace and understanding... Amen.
Prophet.
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Post by seriphim74 on Aug 11, 2007 11:23:53 GMT -5
Why does this seem hard. Though I can understand what His prophet is trying to say, the fact of the matter is, is that the trinity does teach there are three Gods. You are right when you say sematics is the problem. Oneness believe in One god, total in number. That Jesus is the Everlasting Father, and the Holyghost all at the same time. THIS DOES NOT refer to his earthly ministry but his exalted status. Trinity beleive that there is one God that is the father, then another god that is the son, and the third god that is the Holyghost. Now i know most of you will claim that you don't beleive that, but i do read your post and it is evident that you do. You beleieve that these three make up a one god in thought and action but not bodily. that they share an escense. You make this known by saying things as EACH have THEIR OWN, or Identity. That only holds true when talking about the humanity of Jesus. But we hench forth know no man after the flesh. Jesus is not the same Jesus that walked the earth and died. He is no longer human, thus he does not have two different wills. My question is how can you distiquish between the identies of all three. but let us go further into what I am trying to say. the below are what prophet has said and are what alot of trinitarians have stated here on this board.
Using Webster's definitions, one can conclude that a Trinitarian believes that the Godhead is made up of three persons, each containing the essence of God... The underlying substance is the same. Or, three manifestations of the One God... Certainly, all the fullness of the deity exist in Jesus... just as the Holy Spirit exist in billions of believers simultaneously, at the same moment. Further, each member of the Godhead... share their identity as One God. They each have One Spirit... The Holy Spirit. And, just as the Holy Spirit resides in you he also resides in Billions more at the same moment... What matter then is it for the Holy Spirit to reside in the Father and the Son at that same moment.
(The above is a clear and cut indication that Jesus and the father are seperate in body, for if they are of spirit form then there is no seperatrion nor distinction, yet the Holyghost is to reside in both of them. Then who resides in the Holyghost? The fact that God can reside in billions of believers show that he is omnipresent he can be anywhere at all times. WHen it speaks of Godhead it speaks of all that is God, his power, spirit, nature, character. If it is ALL then there is nothing left to be shared. Christ can not have ALL POWER yet share it. If I said I had ALL the legos in the world then you wouldn't expect to see any other person with a lego would u? The Holyghost being in millions of believers show no diversity of person nor does it show who the Godhead can be divided. IT is all the same spirit and will agree with the other, not reach a compromise but aggree as to fact. I can not say I have the Holyghost and that you have it and we can not agree if God is a trinity. GOd does not operate in confusion nor is he the author of it. One of us has it and the other does not only in the end will we find out so we both have to make our calling and election sure.
As for who came first the Father or the Son? Again, you are attempting to construct a logical argument based on earthly laws... believing that the son must come, after the father. However, Jesus Christ existed with the Father from the beginning... They co-existed(John 1:1). Our spirit was formed in God, from the beginning... Scripture says, He knew us before the foundations of this world. We had our existence in God before our earthly father ever existed. We have our life in God, from the begining... See my post entitled Life Begins in the Beginning. The real I... the spirit Iam, existed together with my earthly fathers spirit, before I was every concieved... Therefore, the father did not come before the son... the co-existed in the Spirit... from the beginning.
(several things I find amusing with thist statment here. The first is that you say Christ co-existed with the father. Once again two gods working togheter side by side to form the world. The second is the fact of how you used yourself to say you existed before the world was. But how did you exist, you said in spirt we all know that God breathed the breath of life and man became a living sould, but that is the point that Adam existed seperate from God. As we all existed in the mind of God at the begining but not seperate from him. If it is the breath of God combined with a flesh and blood body that make up the human soul. then only at birth do we really exist. Your individual spirit did not exist (the thing that makes you U) Even still then why would it be hard to beleive that Jesus only existed in the mind of God, that the lamb was slain before the foundations of the world. We must remember anything that is in the mind of God is as good as being done. The lamb was slain before Adam came into existence yet we know that Jesus died many many many years after the first man was created. Many use John 1:1-14 to say Jesus pre existed. then Jesus would be the image of Jesus and not the father. IT would be that Jesus was clothed in flesh and not the father. When the fulness of time was come God sent forth is Son, MADE of a woman, MADE under the law. If Jesus prexisted then he could not have been made, he already was! the term son would mean that he proceeded after the father, If he was the prexisting son then who is the prexisting mother? John 1:1-14 only talks about the pre plan of God that existed before the world was, just as you said we existed before the foundations of the world. It say that the word was God, not that is was a God of it own. If it starts of talking about the God in the beginning and then to say that the very same word was that very God in the begining, why would it mean that Jesus pre-existed?
The number of names or titles given to a person, doesn't make that person, more than one... Queen Elizabeth of England has over 100 names and titles... but she is just one woman. Therefore, when the Trinity refers to God the Son... they are not identifying a separate God, who is separate from God the Father... They believe if you have seen the Son you have also seen the Father, for they are One.
(by the above reason alone you are saying the Jesus is the father which would be correct. But by your other above statments you have clearly asserted that Jesus has his own identity and has the fullness Of the godhead in him as well as the father. Scripture attest that God in one and there is none but one God. God declared (which is to make known) that he created the heavnens and the earth ALONE. There is not God beshide him neither will there be after him. there is one throne and The LORD JESUS CHRIST sits upon that one throne, Jesus being at the right hand is only a position of Power, the etenal spirt of God is invisible no one can see it. If you can not understand what Jesus on the right hand means then stop talking abut undertanding earthly and spiritual things.
More to come.
Praise Him
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Post by phillip on Aug 11, 2007 11:39:46 GMT -5
There is Only One''
Christ; the Son of God; He is the Express Image of God,s Person; The Head of the Church/Body 1JN 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. HEB 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
HEB 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
HEB 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
HEB 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
HEB 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
HEB 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
HEB 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
HEB 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Jesus Saves Acts 2;38
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Post by joseph7 on Aug 11, 2007 12:13:37 GMT -5
The trinity doctrine says it is a divine mystery no man can explain Yet Paul says the GODHEAD is CLEARLY SEEN and UNDERSTOOD. Something that is CLEARLY SEEN AND UNDERSTOOD is NOT a mystery. The fact that the trinity doctrine is a "divine mystery" tells me it is NOT of GOD because GOD is NOT the author of confusion.Yes it dated to 2nd century when apostates mixed paganism with Christianity to form the trinity doctrine we have today. The trinity doctrine is of man, not GOD.
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Post by hisprophet on Aug 11, 2007 12:16:44 GMT -5
Sepriphim:
You say I said: "first is that you say Christ co-existed with the father. Once again two gods working togheter side by side to form the world." Wrong... John 1:1 says Christ, the Word of God coexisted with God the Father from the beginnig. Jesus said I am the Alpha and Omega... the first and the last, not I.
When I claim Jesus is the Father... and yet has His own identity... it is always within the Godhead which is one. Similarly Ice has it's own identity but is always H20 water. Simple, to understand for those with an eye to see and an ear to hear. However, some will simply ignore the truth. God is One... made up of three persons. Just as water is one... with three separate bodies, Ice, Steam and liquid water; three bodies but one.
As for creation you ignore that God said... LET US... US, make man in our image and likeness. Sounds like more than one were present when Adam was made. Sorry, the Hebrew term used for God was plural (US)in the account of the creation of Adam. God was not alone in the creation... let us make man in our image and likeness is not singular... being alone.
We are arguing over semantics... God is One, I don't deny this at all. All my arguments are first centered on the immutable fact that God is One. Just as Water is one... even though it appears in nature in three forms... all of them are H20 water. This concept is simple if you will only believe. There is no difference in the fundamental basis for the Godhead in what I have said and what Oneness beleives... it is simply a matter of semantics.
The rest of your arguments are similar in nature... they ignore the full counsel of God... extracting and misrepresenting the Word of God and my statments. I will not engage those in debat that engage in doubtful disputations... I have better things to do.
Prophet.
When I say that the Godhead is a mystery it is to those who attempt to define God and the Godhead in carnal terms. Limiting their perception of God to the laws of physics... claiming God cannot be one yet manifest in three separate bodies when ever and however He decides... yesterday, today or in the future.
The scripture teaches that the mystery of God is hidden in Christ... to those without an eye to see... this is what I mean when I say it is a mystery, hidden from the eyes and conversation of the natural man.
Prophet.
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