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Post by apostolic on Jan 21, 2007 23:50:04 GMT -5
Did Jesus drink alcohol?
Do you believe Jesus drank wine?
The Gospels talk about old wine and new wine.
Could old wine be fermented wine and new wine unfermented wine?
Some people have a hard time believing that Jesus would drink something that has such harmful effects on the body--even in moderation. Is wine really harmful or is it medicinal?
What are your thoughts?
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Post by carolina on Jan 21, 2007 23:52:39 GMT -5
Ask any wine maker how long it takes for grapes to become fermented. Anytime you crush a grape, the juice will be fully fermented in just a few weeks.
Grapes ripen in the late summer or early fall. Passover is in the Spring. It was not until after Dr. Welch started his process in the late 1800's that you could drink non fermented grape juice in the spring.
I do not believe that wine in moderation is harmful.
I do believe wine is medicinal.
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Post by jo on Jan 21, 2007 23:54:32 GMT -5
Short answer... yes.
Grape juice starts to break down immediately. There is no way that grape juice could have been kept in those days.
Besides, Jesus turned 180 gallons of water into the finest wine at Cana. We know it wasn't grape juice they were drinking because the guests had "drunk freely" and didn't know the older from the newer vintage.
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Post by Dawny on Jan 22, 2007 17:19:03 GMT -5
My question would be this: does the Bible mention Jesus drinking wine at any time?
Just cause he turned water to wine does not mean he drank it.
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Post by Administrator on Jun 14, 2007 19:08:49 GMT -5
Luke 7:33-34
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Post by dedicatedheart on Jun 14, 2007 19:10:25 GMT -5
We must be careful to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29) and to not become so caught up in the doctrines of men that we turn our backs on God (Matthew 15:8-9, Mark 7:7-9, Titus 1:14).
Wine is praised; it rejoices God and men (Judges 9:13); it gladdens the heart of men (Psalms 104:15); it gladdens life (Exodus 10:19); it makes the heart exult (Zechariah 10:7); it cheers the spirits of the depressed (Proverbs 31:6) . . . The attitude of Jesus toward wine, like that of the entire Bible, is neutral, praising its use and finding fault in its intemperate or being used for drunkenness.
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Post by joseph7 on Jun 14, 2007 19:11:13 GMT -5
Grape juice does all that wine does without the affect of the alcohol eating through the lining of your stomach and perforating your arteries. The Bible in Proverbs says "look not upon the WINE when it is red and gives it's color in the cup and moves itself aright". What does that mean? It means NOT to drink wine when it has become ALCOHOL! Plain and simple.
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Post by ax on Jun 14, 2007 19:12:48 GMT -5
The bible NEVER teaches grape juice. It always teaches wine. Certainly the production of wine at Cana (John 2:1-11) shows that Jesus never regarded the use of wine as sinful in itself.
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Post by doz on Jun 14, 2007 23:05:40 GMT -5
I don't know if he drank it......... I do know that he is referred to as a "wine bibber" or something like that in the KJV .....
Blessings DOZ
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Post by joseph7 on Jun 16, 2007 8:12:35 GMT -5
Again if the word "WINE" can ONLY mean alcohol each and EVERY time it is used, then why does proverbs say "look not upon the wine when it is red and gives its color in the cup and moveth itself aright"? Why does proverbs warn against it and strong drink? Why were the priests told not to drink it before serving at the altar lest they die? Why were the Nazerites forbidden to drink it? Why does paul in the new testament tell the church it is not good to drink wine or strong drink and not to be filled with wine but be filled with the SPIRIT instead? I'm sure JESUS drank wine but I doubt seriously it was any type of the wine they sell in the liqour stores today.
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Post by ehudslefthand on Jun 16, 2007 18:13:51 GMT -5
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children. (Luke 7:29-35 KJVR)
The Pharisees seen him drinking WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or why then would they call him a wine bibber???
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:14-20 KJVR)
The Bible does not lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The fruit of the Vine is wine, if you look at Grape Juice and let it sit in thw fridge for a few days you will see some white yeast floating the top, this is a natural yeats which grow the outside of the grape, if you drink Grape Juice it is leavened wine, because the fermentation process come from the yeast which is no more when the wine is made. FOlks, they did have the facilities to make grape juice in those days like we do today.
Jesus drank wine. plain and simple.
Now that we have that out of the way, Praise God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In Christ
elh
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Post by Music Guy on Jun 16, 2007 23:07:43 GMT -5
Amen, ehudslefthand
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Post by joseph7 on Jun 20, 2007 17:51:55 GMT -5
The grape juice we have today has added sugars and a lot of other stuff.It still takes more than a few days for it to do that even in the fridge. Paul told the church it is not good to drink wine or strong drink, he also told them to no longer be filled with it but to be filled with the SPIRIT The Bible also says not to let your good be evil spoken of and abstain from the appearance of evil. Guess what satan tells the drunk who sees the Christian coming out of the liquor store?He tells them"I bet they get drunk!Hypocrites.They condemn you for something they do themselves!If THEY can drink and go to heaven you can too! What did Paul say about eating something that causes a weaker brother to sin?He said he wouldnt eat meat if it caused a brother to sin while the earth stood.It means alcohol should not mean more to us than the person satan wishes to destroy with it.If you cannot be happy without alcohol and have the SPIRIT of GOD, then something is wrong.JESUS also told the disciples HE would NOT drink of the fruit of the vine again until they were in HIS kingdom.Also, it never says whether the wine HE or anyone else drank was grape juice, slightly rotten, a little fermented, or 100 proof.Most assume wine means 100% so use it as an excuse to drink then Paul who was an apostle starts telling them to quit drinking it.Would he tell them to quit drinking grape juice or "your wine"?
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Post by inspired on Jun 27, 2007 14:03:31 GMT -5
In the bible, the wine made people drunk. I think it is evident what the scriptures are teaching.
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Post by joseph7 on Jun 27, 2007 16:41:07 GMT -5
Not all wine, this is why proverbs said NOT to look at wine when it had b turned red(became alcohol).Also, the new testament has several passages that says to not drink it,except for the stomach sake(for medicinal purposes). As I posted before Paul told the churches to stop drinking wine and strong drink, it is a bad witness this day and time and even if you are Christian you can become alcoholic.If you give 1 million people alcohol to drink on a regular basis, a percentage of them will become alcoholic.How many? Well in 1984 the US gov. took in 12.3 million in revenue off of the sales of alcohol.The US turned right around and spent out 89.8 million for the damages it caused that year.Looks like alcohol is putting us in the hole. JESUS took whips and beat the people out of the church yard when they were buying and selling.I guess we should follow the example next time the church has a fund raiser in the church yard?
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Post by seriphim74 on Jun 27, 2007 23:45:19 GMT -5
Jesus did not drink alcholic wine. In those days they has the strong drink or wine, then they had what he called sweet wine. which went throught special processes to not get fermented. And since God told the nazerites to not drink wine at all, if Jesus did he would have broken the law and thus we would have no salvation. The bible warns agaisnt alchool because it is a mocker and a strong drink is rage. the priest of God were forbidden to drink it also. Also alchahol today is much stronger then what is was back then, and the minute you drink it it impairs your senses.
Praise Him
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Post by ehudslefthand on Jun 28, 2007 0:05:42 GMT -5
it is sad that people misquote Paul of all people......And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; (Ephesians 5:18 KJVR) Paul made a distinction in wine drinking as in getting drunk, but he told timothy to do thusly....
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. (1 Timothy 5:23 KJVR)
The topic was not about an offended drunk, Even Jesus offended the pharisees and they called him a wine bibber,not a grape juice bibber!!!! And the Bible does not say Jesus Drank sweet wine either, They called him a wine bibber, which is a drunk, one has to bee seen drinking real wine to be called such.
One can talk about the drunks at the liquor store, we are charged with witnessing to those whom are sick, and that drunk is sick, if one has to worry about what a drunk thinks about when an apostolic walks into a liquor store, grocery store or even the local 7-11 store,That man needs to check Himself and pray that critical spirit out !!!!!
what is the purpose of such worries? is that drunk my brother? did he get baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost? is he a backslider? why then worry about what he thinks and go up and tell him about Jesus tell him how much Jesus loves him, that is what was commissioned to us by the Lord Jesus Christ, the Almighty God that is and was and will always be!!!!!!!!!!!!
That drunk is a soul, and yes i walk into the liquor store all the time that is next to the church, and they always see me walk out with a vitamin water, or chips and yes i invited that Drunk, and that drug addict to Church. Am i bragging? no, this is what we should be doing, doing that which the Lord God called us out to do, not these vain disputations, he called us out and chose us to be witnesses with signs a following.
May God have that end time revival, we need to be more sensitive to the spirit and less to our flesh, or mind and our will. I want to see the miracles of the days of the Apostles right there at the Liquor store !!!!!!!!!!!!! The Holy Ghost was in Charge back in those days and we need to let the Holy Ghost be in charge just like they did when Tabitha was raised from the dead, Just like they did when the shadow of Peter cured the sick, and just like they did when Paul prayed over some rags and had them sent out and the Casted out devils with those rags!!!!!!!!!
If i offended you i am sorry but we need to be in the perfect will of God and get out of ourselves and get the Holy Ghost in operation and start reaching out to the lost and quit worring about what people think about when you walk into a liquor store!!!!!!!!!
PRAISE THE LORD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In Christ
elh
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Post by seriphim74 on Jun 28, 2007 15:18:42 GMT -5
Paul said the to timothy for a specific purpose. It was a treatmeant for his stomach not a go ahead to drink wine. my goodness people. dont use scripture just for a need to do something. Wine is forbiden alchahol period, there is no moderation, if your body is a temple and he that defiles his temple you know the rest. Alchohal destroys the liver it impaires the senses. The had wasy of making grape juice by boiling it down to about a third of it's orininal volume, It made the condense juice very sweet. this condense juice could be used as medicine, in cooking, or in other wines. if they boiled it down even more it could become syrup or jelly. Because of the high suger it was able to avoid spoiling or fermenting. They would add water to this, or they would water down fermented grape juice so that it would lose some of it's potency. The bible refers to any form of grape juice as wine, it does not mean that it was fermented, Fesly squeezed crushed or whatever grapes would be refered to as wine. To lefthands point of being a witness how can u witness to a drunk about how God and take the taste of alcahol away and u yourself is drinking a beer. Youd be a hypocrit. Jesus would not make alchohol and give it to the people. The bible speaks against it in the old and the new testement. He would have been a hinderence to alot of people if he did, and therefore would not have fullfilled his purpose. i pray this helps someone
Praise Him
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Post by joseph7 on Jun 28, 2007 16:01:34 GMT -5
You are ASSUMING that EVERY time the word "WINE" is used it can ONLY mean alcohol and it does not.They also said JESUS had a devil.So was JESUS a drunkard too?I mean if they accused HIM of it it has to be true right?No.Paul also told the church in ANOTHER place where Paul told them it was not good to drink wine or strong drinkPeople say"all things in moderation are ok".That is NOT in the Bible.It DOES say " a little leaven leavens the WHOLE lump.If the word "WINE" can ONLY mean alcohol, what does proverbs mean when it says NOT to look at it when it turns RED?Red means it has become alcohol.If you have another explanation,I'd like to hear it.It is calling NON alcoholic WINE-- WINE.So how do we KNOW that JESUS drank ALCOHOL?Even if it ferments, the alcohol content takes a while to develop.You get VINEGAR first.It doesn't trun from grape juice to 100 proof in 24 hours.
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Post by seriphim74 on Jun 28, 2007 16:10:15 GMT -5
please excuse my spelling errors Praise Him
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Post by inspired on Jun 29, 2007 14:51:08 GMT -5
AMEN, Ehudslefthand.
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Post by inspired on Jun 29, 2007 14:53:46 GMT -5
Jesus did not abstain [indeed, people called him a drunkard! Although certainly not true, it would be difficult for this charge to have been made had Jesus only drunk grape juice].
Our attitude toward alcohol may well be conditioned by our culture more than we realize.
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Post by joseph7 on Jun 29, 2007 16:53:27 GMT -5
They may not have been drinking with JESUS and just ASSUMED HE was drinking alcohol.We have NO way of knowing and the fact that rom 14:21 and a few other new testament passages says its best to leave it alone, I would have to say JESUS didnt drink alcohol if I were to make an inference from scriptures as a whole.People will argue vehemently that "all things in moderation" is ok, but the Bible says "a little leaven ,leavens the WHOLE lump".Again the word "WINE" can be used for more than just alcohol, the pharisees didn't like JESUS OR the people JESUS ate and drank with.So it is possible they may have assumed a lot of things like they did at HIS trial.
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Post by seriphim74 on Jun 30, 2007 0:31:04 GMT -5
if jesus know that wine is a mocker and stong drink is rage why would he drink it. Why would he open a door for all to stumble. Do you even realize the weight of that in which you say. The pharaisees accused Jesus of alot. Does that meant that every word that came out of their mouth was true. He didn't even drink at the last supper, u telling me that he drank all those other times but at the most cruical point when he told the diciples to do this in remberance to me he did not drink. He was a nazerite God spicifically gave them instruction to not drink of the friut fo the vine. Jesus kept the law he obeyed Gods words. Luke 7:29-35 Jesus used this to display the differnces in in him and john the baptist and yet they maintained that both were of the devil. John seperated himself neither drank not ate bread the are refering to saying he didnt hang out with the crowd he was always seperated about Gods work. Now Jesus comes and is not like John, not he talks to those in the gutter he hangs out witht the apostle he seems to live an ordinary life unlike John who's lifestyle was not ordinary, second John the baptist was not to drink wine or strong drink. If God had john the baptist do that much how much more would he require of his own son. You mean to tell me the John could not drink wine(grape juice) or strong drink (alchoholic wine) but Jesus sipped it regularly. say it aint so. Come on people God is not mocked. Thrid the pharisees said anything to diecredit him in Jesus one statement about the winebibber he is asking them how can John the baptist be of the devil becase he did none of the thing that they accuse him of, (the eating and being a drunkard) last that scrpture in no way nor any prove that Jesus drank wine and the fact that anyone would use the words of the pharaisees to make it seem so screams HYPORCRITS. well thats what they were and accusesed Jesus of much, and if you go with the Jesus didn't deny it, he didn't deny anything the accused him of he just kept on teaching. then its funny your quote Luke 22:14-20, in vs 18 he plainly says i WILL NOT DRINK OF THE FRUIT OF THE VINE UNTIL the kindom of God shall come. No where is in the bible do you see Jesus drinking wine. and everyone wants to take the word of the pharasees. HYPORCRITS. by his own testimony he said he would not drink of the fruit of the vine his own testimony. This may seem harsh but it is the truth, personal interpretation is curruption. Why cause you have people saying things like Jesus drank wine so it's ok to drink a little wine only in moderation. Or Paul told timothy to drink a little bit of wine (and leave out that is was for a speicific purpose of a stomach ach) and boiled grape juice was used for medicne as I stated above. Using the word decitfully to fit ones own needs. I said in another topic, to many people just have a surface of the bible and no revelation no depth whatsoever. I will take Jesus's word for it and not that of the pharasees. With all thy getting get and understanding.
Praise Him
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 2, 2007 21:17:38 GMT -5
Have to take something back, Jesus was a nazerine not a nazerite, though he could be considered a type of nazerite that he dedicated himself to God for his use.
Praise Him
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Post by ehudslefthand on Jul 14, 2007 1:39:56 GMT -5
if jesus know that wine is a mocker and stong drink is rage why would he drink it.Indeed why would he?? why would he not?? perhaps you have drank the water over there during those days he walked this earth???Why would he open a door for all to stumble.Why lay burdens upon men without scripture to show us he did not drink wine? Do you even realize the weight of that in which you say.Do you?The pharaisees accused Jesus of alot.They sure did, notice Jesus own words....For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!(Luke 7:33-34 KJVR) They saw what was served him and were told, he made no secret as to what he ate nor drank!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ya'll is to caught up with yourselves and bicker over vain disputations.Does that meant that every word that came out of their mouth was true.And does that mean what you are telling us is true also?He didn't even drink at the last supper, u telling me that he drank all those other times but at the most cruical point when he told the diciples to do this in remberance to me he did not drink.Oh, Yes he did to drink wine , you err not knowing the scriptures.He was a nazerite God spicifically gave them instruction to not drink of the friut fo the vine.Here is where your error is, where does the bible say he took a nazarite vow? He was called a Nazarene because he was from Nazareth.And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. ( Matthew 2:23 KJVR) Maybe you should try reading your bible more with some prayer and some wisdom before making such a hasty reply. Am I Putting you down, no, Am I trying to hurt your feelings No, But some people should really try and study the customs and the lifestyles of the times when Jesus walked the earth instead of looking at it from their own life experiences or from other men's paradigms.Jesus kept the law he obeyed Gods words.That he did, there is no law that kept him from drinking wine, John the Baptist though was given different instructions by his mother and father.There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abijah: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.(Luke 1:5-7 KJVR) Well folks he it is, we are at the birth of John the Baptist, now He father and mother were righteous in the eyes of God, let see what this says....And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense. And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. (Luke 1:8-14 KJVR) And God heard their prayer, Now I want you to pay close attention to what comes nextFor he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.(Luke 1:15 KJVR) Now John was given specific instruction by his parentsAnd many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. (Luke 1:16-17 KJVR) Now According to these scriptures John was bound by the nazarite vow, which Jesus was never bound by.Luke 7:29-35 Jesus used this to display the differnces in in him and john the Baptist and yet they maintained that both were of the devil.Has nothing to do with Jesus taking a nazarite vow. you are arguing a red herring Jesus himself in that scripture admits to drinking wine without actually saying it or he would have said he did not drink wine.John seperated himself neither drank not ate bread the are refering to saying he didnt hang out with the crowd he was always seperated about Gods work.Now this he did because the bible tells us so..... For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.(Luke 1:15 KJVR) Now Jesus comes and is not like John, not he talks to those in the gutter he hangs out witht the apostle he seems to live an ordinary life unlike John who's lifestyle was not ordinary, second John the Baptist was not to drink wine or strong drink. Jesus was like no man the ever walked this earth before, that does nor say he cannot drink wine, john was given a nazarite vow before his birth, Jesus had to be baptized just like us, was john baptized??? the bible does not tell us he was baptized, he was bound to a nazarite vow. do understand what that means?If God had john the Baptist do that much how much more would he require of his own son. You Got chapter and verse for that?The bible does not say that, this is called appealing to a common belief and is very unbiblical. Moses drank wine, Noah Drank wine, Abraham drank wine, David Drank wine, and Jesus drank wine.You mean to tell me the John could not drink wine(grape juice) or strong drink (alchoholic wine) but Jesus sipped it regularly. John the Baptist could not drink wine, which is strong drink, you are adding definitions to words that the greek no the english support. And yes Jesus could sip it all he wants, you are now appealing to emotions, this a fallacy argument at best.say it aint so. It is so. Paul explains thusly this is how we know that when we take communion there was alcohol in the wine used and not juice.....Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. This is for you juice drinkers....For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. Now pay close attention juice drinker, Paul is talking to the Corinthians about abusing communion When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. You get this yet? oh but let us continue on here....For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.[/color] (1 Corinthians 11:17-21 KJVR)
You cannot get drunken on Grape Juice.
Come on people God is not mocked.
Neither does the word lie either.
Thrid the pharisees said anything to diecredit him in Jesus one statement about the winebibber he is asking them how can John the Baptist be of the devil becase he did none of the thing that they accuse him of,
That word drunken means what it says...
G3184 μεθύωmethuōmeth-oo'-o
From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en).
That one statement has more than two witnesses, you seem to forget that wine was put in a certain kind of vessel, they would have never called him thusly if they had not seen what he drank from, they ate with and were around him constantly. let us continue with Paul's lesson and drinking to much wine for the Lord's supper....
What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. (1 Corinthians 11:22 KJVR)
Now do you have any biblical refutation that can be viewed that shows that was not wine? Fruit of the vine is wine
(the eating and being a drunkard) last that scrpture in no way nor any prove that Jesus drank wine and the fact that anyone would use the words of the pharaisees to make it seem so screams HYPORCRITS.
Oh yes it sure does not say what you are saying, He drank wine, get over it. He called them hypocrites for what purpose? Becaused like some Apostolics today, they had the law, like some of you have long sleeves long skirts and long faces.
well thats what they were and accusesed Jesus of much, and if you go with the Jesus didn't deny it, he didn't deny anything the accused him of he just kept on teaching. then its funny your quote Luke 22:14-20, in vs 18 he plainly says I WILL NOT DRINK OF THE FRUIT OF THE VINE UNTIL the kindom of God shall come.
Fruit of the vine is wine, do you have anything else to refute this or not? because you err not reading the other accounts from two other apostles that heard what he said in that room. you better get into that word and dig deeper sister, because you have not shown us anything that shows what was in that cup was not wine, Paul rebuking the Corinthians for misusing the Lord's supper and the word drunken shows they used that stuff that has alcohol in it. Let us continue on what Paul was talking about.....
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.(1 Corinthians 11:23-34 KJVR)
No where is in the bible do you see Jesus drinking wine.
No Where in the Bible does it show him drinking Grape Juice. Paul's rebuke of the drunken Corinthians shows what was in that cup.
Your whole argument is based on a vow Jesus never took. You said thusly....
I said in another topic, to many people just have a surface of the bible and no revelation no depth whatsoever.
That sure is right ...... let us see what this means.....
He was a nazerite God spicifically gave them instruction to not drink of the friut fo the vine.
Now Sister sit back reread these scriptures.
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. (Matthew 2:23 KJVR)
Did you not say was nazarite because of a vow?
You said He was a nazerite God spicifically gave them instruction to not drink of the friut fo the vine. Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.(Mark 14:25 KJVR)
Gives us a little better insight, why would he say no more if he never tasted it in the first place?
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.(Matthew 26:29 KJVR)
Henceforth means no more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! which shows he has tasted of the wine from the vine.
and everyone wants to take the word of the pharasees.
I actually take the word of the word of God in context and do not paraphrase it nor give another mans teachings that do not line up with the book.
HYPORCRITS.
Ahh ya should kept this out, these were his Children sister, His beloved Israel, he rebuked his children just like he does us today, we are no different than those pharisees, you see mans traditions have krept into the church the Bible says thusly...
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.(Proverbs 14:12 KJVR)
Mans traditions try to change the word of God, and I am telling you sister, this is a paradigm, which is simply a teaching that is set in stone in your mind that don't line with the book.
by his own testimony he said he would not drink of the fruit of the vine his own testimony.
By his own testimony he said he would no more, you saw that up above, from the fruit of the vine, the Devil pays very close attention to these little details and knows what you know just by what you have said, and like he beguiled eve he has beguiled many today Because she said she could not touch the fruit and Adam told her not to eat it, Big difference, Just like here with this wine issue, are going to look at this without being to proud to admit this is truly what the bible says? This may seem harsh but it is the truth, personal interpretation is curruption.
it sure is harsh , you jumped right on in without doing some simple studying, those little details God sure cares about, that is why we must delve deeply into the word of God to get an understanding.
Why cause you have people saying things like Jesus drank wine so it's ok to drink a little wine only in moderation.
Did I say that? no. again you presume much and know little of why we say such things.
Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.(Psalms 19:12-13 KJVR)
Sister did you pray before you posted this and did you read the other scriptures that show he did indeed drink wine?
Or Paul told timothy to drink a little bit of wine (and leave out that is was for a speicific purpose of a stomach ach) and boiled grape juice was used for medicne as I stated above.
The definition of wine in the context used by Paul was not boiled grape juice or it would have said so. it was real alcohol wine, the kind that has to ferment. as for you say so, what does the BIBLE SAY SO?
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.(1 Timothy 5:23 KJVR)
G3631
οινοςoinosoy'-nos
A primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin [H3196]); “wine” (literally or figuratively):- wine.
Let us see what this Hebrew origin says....
H3196
יין
yayinyah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].
Using the word decitfully to fit ones own needs.
Well sister, one should follow their own advise don't you think?
I will take Jesus's word for it and not that of the pharasees.
I pray that you do.
With all thy getting get and understanding.
I hope you did from this little study.
In Christ
Elh
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 15, 2007 3:23:13 GMT -5
Indeed why would he?? why would he not?? perhaps you have drank the water over there during those days he walked this earth???
No I have not drank the water over there during those days, are you 100% sure all they had to drink was wine.
Why lay burdens upon men without scripture to show us he did not drink wine?
My intent is to not lay burdens only to get other to relize the weight of what they say. I will explain further.
They sure did, notice Jesus own words....For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!(Luke 7:33-34 KJVR)
They saw what was served him and were told, he made no secret as to what he ate nor drank!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ya'll is to caught up with yourselves and bicker over vain disputations.
where is the scripture that supports that someone told them this. Like i said they did accuse him of alot, they saw him cast out demons and said he was of satan. should we believe that also, I mean its the word of the pharasees and when they speack and accuse Jesus of anything then they must be right. right?
Now also I have is a book called the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. It has both the hebrew written on one page and the translation on the other. The manuscripts used for this book are dated around the fourteenth centrury. It is noted that the manuscripts used the most can be found in a british library.
Matthew 11:18 "because John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say concerning him: he is possesed of demons. 11:19 "But the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and one says concerning him: his a gluton, a drunkard, and a friend to violent men and sinners. So fools judge the wise."
The greek word for wine in the new testement is "oinos" which can be used as a generic name for wine as well.
Hab 2:15 " woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, and puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!"
you mean to tell me Jesus served fermented wine at the wedding. Here me when I say wine is refered to as many things. both fermented and unfermented. When I say Jesus did not drink wine I mean fermented as in alcohol. You and no one else has any proof that he drank alcohol. I have shown you where grapes still in a cluster are called wine. They had ways of making sweet wine which was unfermented grape juice by boiling the juice down until it is nothing but the suger contents and added water. IT was still called WINE. Yes I had made errors one of which I corrected before your post the other witin this one. BUt you also must understand and study the scriptures and see what it says in regards to it. You can not assume that wine referenced in the bible is fermented, that would be in error.
when I said understand the weight of your words. People use the water into wine, or Jesus drinking wine as a excuse for drinking beer and other alcoholic bevearges. Not knowing that there was unfermented wine (grape juice) that was also drunk back then. That they did boil down the juice and used it for medicinal purposses as well and still called it WINE.
The scripture to timothy from paul was for his stomach ach. we have way better medicines for a stomach ach these days so that scripture holds no weight to show that alcohol can be drunken. with so much evidence and proof that Jewish customs produced both unfermented and fermented wine. With scripture speaking agaisnt strong drink which would be anything fermented. what proof do you have that Jesus drank fermented wine.
Oh i forget the pharisees said so, so it must be true...
Praise Him
notice the absense of wine within the text. But take it as u will.
Oh, Yes he did to drink wine , you err not knowing the scriptures.
Ah yes you are correct in my further study of the subject. there is a scripture in corinthians that says he supped from the cup first. But my point is not wine in general but fermented wine.
Here is where your error is, where does the bible say he took a nazarite vow? He was called a Nazarene because he was from Nazareth.And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. ( Matthew 2:23 KJVR)
U must of missed my above post where i corrected this error. But one could say that Jesus was a type of Nazerite in that he dedicated himself to God's will.
That he did, there is no law that kept him from drinking wine, John the Baptist though was given different instructions by his mother and father.
If there is no law against it then what are these?
Lev 10:9 "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when you go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: IT shall be a statute for ever thorughout your generations."
Prov 20:1 "wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosever is decieved thereby is not wise."
wine as a mocker, can lead to decreased capacit for self control, a weakening of inhibitions and a dstainig of prudent behavior and righisuos values.
wine as "raging" contibutes to disturbances, conflicts, and violence in families and society and much more.
Prov 23:29-35 "who hat woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30: they that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixt wine. 31:LOOK NOT thou upon hte wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32: at the last it biteht like a serpent, and stingeth like and adder. 33: thine eyes shall behold strange women, and shine heart shall utter perverse things. 34: yea thou shalt be as he that lieth doewn in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. 35: they have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick: they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
Prov 31:4-5 "it is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to dirnk wine; not for princes strong drink: 5: Lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted."
that is to name a few
I know about John and as I stated It was my error in the nazerite vow. forgive me of that.
You Got chapter and verse for that?The bible does not say that, this is called appealing to a common belief and is very unbiblical. Moses drank wine, Noah Drank wine, Abraham drank wine, David Drank wine, and Jesus drank wine.
Noah drank wine and got drunk. Lot drank wine and was raped by his daughters. david drank wine and he cheated on his wife, and had a man sent to his death. referr back to the sriptures in proverbs that talk about kings drinking and why not too. I would say his judgement was impaired a tad bit wouldn you? Also wine was not instituted at passover by God it was instituted by the people of isreal.
John the Baptist could not drink wine, which is strong drink, you are adding definitions to words that the greek no the english support. And yes Jesus could sip it all he wants, you are now appealing to emotions, this a fallacy argument at best.
am I adding to the defenition or could a nazerite not even drink grape juice. lets see
Lev 6:3-4 "He shall seperate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he strink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes or dried. 4: All the days of his seperation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk. the bible seems to state that wine and strong drink or two seperte drinks. strong drink may be older wine or some other type of Alcohol. and wine could have less alcholic content in it. but a nazerite could not even eat grapes so I know they couldnt drink grape juice. Or maybe I missunderstood your above coment if so let me know.
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. This is for you juice drinkers....For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. Now pay close attention juice drinker, Paul is talking to the Corinthians about abusing communion When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. You get this yet? oh but let us continue on here....For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.[/color] (1 Corinthians 11:17-21 KJVR)
The above is the very reason why alcohol should be avoided, (not comunion) they misused it but because of wine being a mocker they could not stop and indulged on it. All I am saying is that Christians should not have alcohol readily available to drink. also to my point imagine this, those same ones read that Jesus was called a winbibber and drank fermented wine and gotten drunk. there excuse was Jesus drank wine why cant we.
That one statement has more than two witnesses, you seem to forget that wine was put in a certain kind of vessel, they would have never called him thusly if they had not seen what he drank from, they ate with and were around him constantly. let us continue with Paul's lesson and drinking to much wine for the Lord's supper....
I stand by what I said before because the Pharasees called him a winbibber does it mean he drank fermented wine. One could say that Jesus drank grape juice and the tried to blame him of drinking fermented wine. Once again i will get back to this later.
yayinyah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber]. yayin is also a term to indicate all sorts of wine
Neh 5:18 "Now that which was prepared for me daily was one ox and six choice sheep: also fowls were prepeared for me, and once in ten days store of all sorts of wine:...."
there were all sorts of things considered wine in OT times, new, old, pure and mixed wines- some fresh from the grape some boiled and condensed, some sweet ad thick like honey, etc. some were fremented and some were not. did Jesus himself drink fermented wine or not.
Isaiah 65:8 "Thus saith the Lord, as the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, destroy it not, for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sake, that I may not destroy them all."
wine is found in a cluster of grapes? could grape juice be refered to as wine also? could boiled down wine which is used for medicinal purposes be refered to as wine also?
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 15, 2007 3:46:34 GMT -5
aw man it did take all that I had wrote. but I had this also in there.
Hab 2:15 " Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that he puttest thy bottle to him, and makesth him drunken also, that he mayest look on their nakendness."
You mean Jesus served fermented wine to his neighbor and had gotten them drunk.
The bible has many references to wine in both the old and new. Not all wine was fermented just like it was not all unfermented. You tell me to search the scripture yet you had not to find that the bible speaks against the drinking of alcohol. that Kings and priest were forbidden to drink it.
I have shown you that even a cluster of grapes is refered to as wine. Hence grape juice could be called wine also. I have corrected my errors one prior to this post and yours another within the post.
The problem is people use Jesus turning water into wine and comunion or Jesus being called a winbibber as an excuse to drink alcohol. that is what I mean by the weight of your words.
Would you give sombody and can of beer and sit with him and witness about the love of Jesus while drinking a cold one. I mean Jesus drank wine (fermented) so why cant you have a glass of beer. Pauls said to drink in moderation. Heck it only one, I mean two beers I am not getting drunk so it's ok.
You may argue that you did not say that that I am putting words in your mouth. But that is exactly what you tell someone who is not saved, and drinks.
It is known that jews in the bible days made both fermented and unfermented wine. so are you 100% sure that Jesus drank fermented wine... given the scriptures above what God said about it. are you 100% sure he gave them fermented wine at the wedding.
Like I also said God did not institute the drinking of wine at passover, and there is no indication that the wine that jesus had was fermented or not at the last supper.
As you stated other misused the passover and made it something God did not intend for it to be. It is another warning of the dangers of Alcohol and it effects to the saints.
If I had missed something let me know, also one more thing you are wrong about. I am not a female. It clearly states that under my handle, for one who says the read you clearly missed the details on that one.
Praise Him
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Post by joseph7 on Jul 15, 2007 22:21:03 GMT -5
Paul also told the Church it is best to NOT drink wine or strong drink or meat offered to idols,ANYTHING that would cause a weaker brother to stumble.Seeing the affects alcohol has and no one knows if they will become an alcoholic by drinking it until it is too late,it is best GOD'S people LEAVE IT ALONE.One who would rather see a weaker brother go to hell than give up his few beers or his glass of wine with a meal loves his alcohol more than his neighbor and is just as addicted to it as the drunk living on the street.Why?Because it means more to him than being a good witness to another human being who is enslaved by it.If we had the meat offered to idols problem here in America I would urge you not to eat meat offered to idols.Paul said he wouldn't eat it if he knew it would cause some one else's destruction while the earth stood.This is LOVE for your neighbor and brothers.
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Post by seriphim74 on Jul 17, 2007 16:59:22 GMT -5
Oh and if i didnt make it clear If you look under my name it says male. Why you kept calling me sister I dont know. For one to say I need to be observant of what I am reading (turn that finger around.)
Praise Him
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